Info Item Team Thread - Item/ingredient/major Id Changes, Updates & More

I don't take defense buffs in raids, and I'm already unkillable in them. Not "nigh-unkillable" I mean I litterally can not die in raids.

Raid buffs aren't the reason tanks are unkillable, it has nothing to do with raid buffs, I'm not even sure why you think it does. Where did you even get this assumption, because its not true.

I do raid without defense buffs, or a spam heal mage. Yes, I have an easy time.

Have you guys ever actually played a full tank build? Or do you just think you know better?
And no, I don't mean some EHP, I mean actually run an HP regen build. No, you will not need raid buffs, and yes, you will have an insanely easy time.

 

I’m pretty sure this discussion has ended now, best to leave beef in the past.
^ jeez I worded that horribly

What I meant:

plz make sure not to create beef the previous page is still more poisonous than the toxic wastes I don’t want more ;-;

Aside from that, I wanna talk about Flashfreeze :D

It’s current design is pretty good in terms of functionality, it’s instant and slows enemies for a bit more time at the cost of range which may seem underwhelming, but through my testing I’d say it’s actually quite good.

Its just that... no offence but it’s animation is kinda lackluster in my opinion :P

I suggest a flashier change to it, (pun intended) using the animation of the old 4th mage spell

I’ve heard that ice snake was some kind of aoe burst attack originally, and I think that perfectly suits the nature of flashfreeze given that a “flashfreeze” during the ice age was visioned to be an encompassing wave of absolute zero

It would be best to half flashfreeze’s current range though at the least if this was implemented because that thing still goes for a good 20 blocks, and combined with the aoe from old ice snake it would be broken 0_0

In terms of functionality, I believe that this modified flashfreeze will still serve its usual purposes well, such as an instant long slow and setup for other spells, and will add a new advantage which may be a valid escape option given the large, long aoe freeze, to be used when you’re surrounded (which happens a lot in this game)

Aight that’s all I got, and thanks for reading :)

 

It was two posts ago, and I haven't been tracking the thread.
Plus, as long as a debate is still relative, and can be discussed, not sure "leave it in the past" is the best argument.

 

Just don’t want any more flame wars, cause those seem be happening more frequently nowadays.

 

Nobody is forcing you to keep going yet you’ve replied to a discussion you apparently don’t want to be a part of some three times now. You don’t get to decide when a topic isn’t relevant anymore. If Jaydon wants to address it, he can. If you really want to end the discussion, then the last thing you should do is try to get in the last word every time. You talk about flame wars, but the most toxic thing that’s been going on thus far is you telling people to stop talking. You’re not preventing any flame war, both in the sense that there was never any danger of one occurring and in the sense that your posts are doing quite the opposite.

It is in your best interest - and I say this because it’s true - to just stop talking.

 

cmon guys, feedback is feedback, let's not gatekeep or be rude about it

tanking in its current state still has some things that overreward it too much (although in specifically jaydons case of being unkillable in raids i do have to wonder if that is or isn't him using the literal highest hpr mythic tank builds in the game), but it's currently in a healthier spot than it's been in years & although i feel like some people likely really overestimate how much/little it should reward (due to avoiding forcing players into builds (even more than currently is the case within raids and wars)), i think it's going into the right direction as of late and moving forward

 

What exactly are you trying to say here? What is this right direction they are moving? Because from our perspective they’re not moving at all until the next change log or update. The discussion isn’t about if the place of tank builds has improved, it’s about recognising where exactly they are now and how to improve from there. Saying they’re going in the right direction is meaningless, since it refers to trends from the past. The last major change to tanks was a damage nerf. Is that the right direction? Or was the indirect buff to tank builds from the addition of raids the right direction? You’re not telling us anything other than some vague sense of how tanks are more balanced than they were before.

What is the item team’s general view on tanks right now? What are yours?

Any meaningful discussion about balance should contain more than vague, relative statements like these.

 

Depends what you mean with "tanky".

My point was not that a full tank would need those buffs to survive. My point is that a squishy build that deals alot of damage can take available buffs (potion or raid) to become basically immortal.

The essence of my point can be narrowed down even more:

I don't think it is good that buffs can quadruple your tankiness if your original setup lacks defences. The essence of your build should come from items and must be complimented by buffs instead of fixed by buffs.

A tank build built around recovery will have an easy time, yes. Tanky heavy hitters with Quake will have an even easier time, because the raw damage you get for Main Attacks is high in TCC (buffs).

While you might doubt my competence or knowledge, I've done many, many raids and made many, many builds for people and myself. For reference, you could fact check this by looking for my character "Arthexis".

I am not new to the RPG genre.

 

To be fair, this is kinda true.
I can also get to this point with life steal, and just heals "Like greed and infernal impulse."
In which case, you can really argue that it's sustain that's causing this, not all tank builds, though that isn't something I've been trying to hide this whole time.
Either way, if the argument is sustain is too good, then we need to nerf sustain items, on at least tank builds somehow.

Also, something to note, as you increase defense and agility, you not only increase EHP but also effective sustain. Each point of heal you can becomes more valuable.
Which is a large part of why I think people want to nerf defense and agility skill points.

________________________________

I'm not doubting you're competence or knowledge.
Sorry if what I said was rude, I was being a bit dramatic at the time, none the less, I can take literally no raid buffs, and still be unkillable in raids.
Though, if you're argument is raid buffs simply make everyone good at everything, then fair enough, they kinda do.

________________________________

Sorry if I came off as aggressive.
I think this thread is largely for debate, so I'm not sure anyone is going to flame anyone else in an aggressive way for say.
We may argue, but I think that's just natural.

I do think you have a right to keep talking, though do keep in mind that by responding, you are opening yourself up to another response, and it isn't on you to decide when a conversation stops.
This is a pet peeve I have really when you're in an argument with someone, and they will respond with "let's just stop talking about it" but they make sure to try and get in the last word every time.
I don't think that's what you're doing, at least not on purpose, I do read your messages are more respectful than that, but just in general that is something that annoys me.

 

given the state of the game, it's actually pretty healthy in my opinion. the root problem remains that raids are poorly designed, which in turn forces this apparently bad buff system.

sustain has increasing effects the more you invest. how do you feel about inverting this behaviour, making their returns diminishing instead? unfortunately any implementation of this concept would probably involve a large rework to game mechanics and the deletion of at least one (hpr%) identification.

 

Haha, hpr % dumb.
Ok, so I do actually think HPR % is kinda stupid, and at least needs to be slowly replaced with just raw HPR.
I think it's a lot of the reason HPR spirals out of control the more of it you stack.

I also think we need a Healing Outgoing, and a Healing Incoming Id as well.
Which, obviously, giving negative healing Outgoing on tank items would help drastically with spam heal tank mages, infernal impulse, and all this other stuff.

So, those two would at least be a start.

-=-=-=-=-=-

That being said, while I do agree that having effective sustain go down, as you're effective Hp would be the best for balance, I do value readability in terms of game mechanics, unlike Salted (JK Salted, I love you, but also why do you do this? Why did you design this games formulas while on acid?)

 

I may be biased but a big problem I see with Tank builds in general (besides from tank heal-spam mage, for obvious reasons) is that they are so much safer and more consistent to use than DPS/Glassy builds as long as your damage is not insufferably low

Not a lot of things in PvE save for Guild Towers (Which since they can range stat-wise from a buffed Bob's Reincarnation to effectively a Raid Boss, are something else) enforce a DPS check so often you pretty much only need to be over the enemy's natural hr to solo it as a Tank.

At the moment, I own an Apocalypse which I use in an ETFA build with Greed, and an Alkatraz which I use in a tome-requiring ETA build. The amount of thought I have to put into the game with the Apocalypse as opposed to Alkatraz is very different. With Alkatraz, I have to account for no real self-sustain and that I have to rely on potions and avoiding boss attacks to simply not die. In theory, the Alkatraz build does a lot more DPS than the Apocalypse one, but who will care about it if I cannot always deal the DPS simply because of the fact that I will die if I do not dodge the special boss abilities and mechanics? With the Apocalypse build I am tanky enough to disregard plenty of the same mechanics and casts that would have got me killed on spot with Alkatraz. And even though I will have less raw DPS, I can always make up for it by using powder specials, consumables, etc.

I am not sure if this is relevant to the discussion, but I wanted to say this considering that the point of lowered Tank damage has been mentioned in this thread. And even if the Tank builds will not do as much damage, it is not necessary to solo practically anything in the game. Might be inconvenient looking for online people and all, but especially accounting for the class used, it just feels like a forced inconvenience to me to use a DPS build in anything but in Wars, where with a team I am essentially plugged in to a Mage Heal IV bag all of the time.

 

In my perspective, it seems like you and storm previously tried quite hard to make a fool out of me, and make me dash my opinion like it’s worthless trash.

I’m sick and tired of treatment like that.

I’m not sure if this is just my stupidly broken perception, but this is how it looks on my end.

All I wanted was a nice friendly place to discuss things, nothing more.


Also, I apologize if I may have caused any distress to anyone by being the one trying to say something last. I don’t really want the last word, what I generally want to try to communicate is: “I don’t want any trouble, I don’t want beef to be created, let’s all just drop our frustrations and move on”

I realize I’m horrible at communicating that though, so it comes off as the last word and one of you guys respond in accordance to that and I vainly attempt to explain my intentions again and the cycle repeats.

I also apologize to the staff managing the thread about how off topic this is and the semi-insane rant :/

 

you are taking this way too seriously man

 

No I'm pretty sure my I gave you very clear instructions on how you can stop making a fool out of yourself. I seriously can't tell if you've misunderstood every single thing I've said to you or you're just deliberately trying to convince people I'm bullying you or something.

 

@Stormarend @starx280
----
Avoid this flame war and continuing to derail this thread from its purpose. Move any personal problems you may have to a more direct and private channel, and try to be respectful towards each other. If this continues, you may lose access to sending messages in this thread. Use the thread for what it was created for.

Yours,
~ BTK

 

^
...this guy’s right, we both got carried away :/

Super super sorry if I disturbed the flow of the thread... I even went back on my statement about talking about items in the item thread.. Sorry everyone T-T

I’ll try to remedy this and re-rail the real discussion: talking about tanks.


Responding to Jaydon’s argument:

I got the assumption that raid buffs are the ones making tanks overpowered by a tcc experience.

Storytime:

Spoiler

I was in a party with a warrior with decent health sustain which was also far tankier than my koh-lunar mage, he got bad rolls on his buffs and then there was me with the health buff one three times in a row. When we started fighting the boss the warrior got wiped from phase 2 colossus shotgun attacks and I was taking negligible damage, even if I was originally less tankier than the previously mentioned warrior.

Sustain from heal was probably the key factor to surviving there (even if I healed him a decent bit imo) but...

Soon after I ate a full colossus arrow storm while panicking and messing up my heal cycle.

Given the circumstances, why the heck was I alive.

So I chalked it up to the raid buffs letting me out-tank a tank warrior, which I still couldn’t make sense of at the time.

The End :D

 

Well, I'm not arguing against that.
Raid buffs just kinda... Well, like I said eariler, "raid buffs make everyone good at everything."
Its kinda dumb I think, it doesn't really allow yourself to shine in any specific role.

 

The main problem is that the buffs are either too small/generic or a must-have, and that survivability is a real issue.

If I go do TCC with my Apoc build, I can go intrepid 1 to help out my teammates incoming-damage-wise, and then G2 for some extra survivability (Since other II buffs are basically symbolic for that build) and S3 to fix a really big issue with the build: dps. With this combination (or the same with Stonewalker I) I pretty much still don't die as much, but I get to do actual damage and to help out my team if I take Intrepid.

If I go do TCC with my Alka build, I will practically have to take G1/G2, since it is pretty glassy already, and even with the buffs it can still be pretty easy to die. Then I can take Stonewalker 3, which will make my DPS considerably high at that point... This still leaves me fairly vulnerable to damage, and no matter what amounts of DPS I can do = a dead DPS is not going to end up well, especially for TCC where at least 2 people must survive, which will also be specific people at the same time due to the cores.

You can make up for damage with the buffs, but patching up glassy builds with defense buffs seems really hard to be consistent and worth it.

 

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