Info Item Team Thread - Item/ingredient/major Id Changes, Updates & More

All these nerfs are making me depressed :(


Also

@NagisaStreams

 

Saviour overriding warscream is intentional and not something to be "fixed". although I'm not entirely sure if the order by which external buffs override each other is intentional, having two or more of these external buffs (which include totem, vanish etc., usually referred to as "potion effects buffs" because they appear as strength / resistence) stack with each other will just be immensly powerful, for example, saviour and warscream alone together are about 40% damage boost, and it's even worse if you start looking at stackable damage reduction. Having these kind of effects stack with each other will be rather disastrous.
Regarding war scream not "disappearing", I believe the way it's implemented currently ("potion effect") is quite problematic in preserving what effect was active previois to the override, but I agree that if possible, keeping the war scream timer active even while it's inactive due to other boosts would be nice. I don't think it's regarded as a bug tho, rather as an intentional feature which doesn't need to be "fixed" but at most, changed.

 

King of Hearts more like King of Farts

 

I’m crying I can finally rest

 

every single time i read an item change log:

glad i quit.

 

Mind that since strength/dexterity are now multiplicative again, all those damage nerfs only really affect the defensive items, and let's face it, if you have the gift of immortality and dare to beg for more, you don't deserve anything more. WFA and other builds had way too much easy damage for what they were.

If you're talking about the King of Hearts nerf, then that was an unfortunate necessity due to the sheer dominance of the item- with how much actual heal power it had, bringing other things UP to its level was basically impossible to do, so it had to be restricted instead.

Kindly give feedback we can use instead of saying "wow IMs suck" every time you see a change you don't like- Salt's an ingredient, but you can't make anything useful with it alone.

 

"Sheer dominance of the item" (Regarding the KoH) When will the Item Team understand that ITEMS that are being used DOESNT mean they are broken it just means their good and are versatile (KoH for LRing/Warring primarily usage for them) there is no necessity most nerfs I've seen from you guys. Literally any item that is used by the community for multiple uses and yes sometimes a lot of people use it but like so what the problem is you guys base ur nerfs on usage which is stupid. Also Xyz's video is pretty informative I liked it. Also Salt is a nice ingredient and for you head of the IMs to throw shade at people who are clearly displeased with the changes and its not like 1 persons opinion many share Xyz's. So since ur head of IMs act professionally plz kthx (I do agree Xyz's feedback isn't very feedbacky but you throwing shade is just as bad.) People are just annoyed that you guys randomly insert nerfs over items that don't require nerfs. (Also if you guys would balance damage in wars people wouldn't need a KoH to do most things and NOT die from the amount of damage being done nerfing KoH into the ground doesn't bring anything up it just makes it unusable and forcing people who want to war to get mythics. because the closest thing to KoH's old heals now are Laments.)

 

please directly quote in my post where i said "wow IMs suck", i can definitely see why you would misinterpret it that way though, given the usual response to these changes.
as far as kindly giving feedback goes, i'm not personally a fan of putting in effort writing constructive criticism to what is essentially /dev/null, there's been plenty of that over the past 3 or so years, look where it's gotten us, but hey since you asked, here goes nothing.

i've lost count of the amount of times the IM has been the metaphorical creeper that's walked into my house and blown up all my stuff and many other peoples, forcing them to rebuild everything for 80th time.

i've already given away all the mythics and valuable items i own at this point, well over 200 stacks worth (no clue if it's all still worth that because wynns economy is a meme) simply because this tired cycle of things getting nerf, nerf, nerfed has drained what little enjoyment i got from making a strong build, because i know it's just going to break in a couple months time when another patch comes out.

meanwhile if i go and play diablo 3 which i've been playing for like 5 or 6 years, you could cut every single finger off of my hand and i'd still be able to count on either of my hands the amount of times my wizard, demon hunter or crusader build has been broken by arbitrary, silly nerfs: Z e r o

thanks for killing my interest in what was once a really cool, interesting and unique server for me mate.
the only reason i don't regret spending all the time and money that i did on wynn is because of the friends i made on this server.
there's your constructive criticism, keep nerfing everything all the time and more people will most likely end up like me, once loving this server, now almost never logging on anymore.

peace.

 

Oftentimes items that end up getting used often by the community end up in that position because they're too good in one aspect or another. Not only do IMs have nothing to do with guild damage balance, but it also was so good as to be practically a necessity in raids and other difficult content- it was so commonplace as to be disappointing when it wasn't there.

We don't JUST base our nerfs off of aggregate usage, but it's a good idea to look out for things that are popping up in places that maybe they shouldn't be so often- Black Catalyst was one of these things, and King of Hearts was as well. It had too much utility- yeah, that lootrunning thing was kinda neat when I heard about it I'll admit, but it just ended up being overall way too much. Either we lowered the spell cost and monitored the heal amount, or we'd have to completely SINK the heal amount to keep it from being too good. We're well aware that people enjoyed the lootrun-enabling aspect of it, and we have that in mind for the future that some kind of replacement probably would be appreciated among that side of the community.

Saying we just "randomly" nerf things is putting things way too personally. We put a lot more thought into our changes than just "hmm, today I think I will nerf <x>" "yes, good idea fellow IM". And as for the closest thing to a King of Hearts heal being Lament...GOOD! Lament's a mythic designed around heal support! It SHOULD have really good heals! This is kinda what I was talking about- nerfs to items are seen as a personal attack and done out of nowhere when there's generally much larger, overarching goals with any changes, even just small tweaks.

Well, I can point to that incredibly passive-aggressive tone in this message(saying we completely ignore feedback with the devnull comment, saying you're glad you quit right after complaining about item changes), and I can point to the video, which was a response to a genuinely ill-fated project that received nothing but negative feedback, as saying "wow these changes and the people behind it suck" considering the message of it. You didn't immediately say "wow IMs suck" but it's not at all difficult to read between the lines, or even just notice your tone.

We've been trying our best to avoid large, sweeping changes to skill points that would break peoples' builds in the past number of item changes, you know. We're aware that having builds broken is frustrating- To the point where Salted himself has asked we limit the amount of skill point changes we make. The ones this update were very deliberate and very necessary- If they weren't, then we wouldn't have made them to begin with. Since IM debates are a democratic process, as well, we ALL had to agree on this, and yes it stings- but especially with the multiplicative changes to Strength and Dexterity meaning Rainbow has gotten a huge bump, restricting that, as well as other things, was necessary. Point to an item on the current running log with its skill points changed and I can give you a valid reason as to why.

Despite how it might seem, Diablo and Wynn have very fundamentally different systems in place about gear. Not seeing a nerf in one game doesn't mean that you can't have nerfs in other game, and items being such an integral part of progression in Wynn(and being made by volunteers, however much experience we might have with this after so many years) means that we need to keep a real close eye on them and make adjustments if needed. Making that kind of comparison doesn't actually give us any real information on what to do except "Don't nerf things" which isn't as feasible as it seems.

If we never nerf anything, the game will continue to get easier and easier and easier, for the people who know how to build and use items effectively. It'll also get easier for people who don't know how, but less-so, and it'll reach a boiling over point where we'd be forced to buff the MOBS in the game so that everything wasn't a curbstomp in the player's favor thanks to the numbers they can rack up...and that would bring challenge back to acceptable for the players who know how to build, yes, but what about everyone else(i.e.: the majority who play the game more casually)? The game's just going to become numerically difficult for them for no apparent reason, and we'd have even more people quitting over the game suddenly becoming unwelcoming for newer players due to the power creep of items. We HAVE to mitigate it, and yes, it's unfortunate that builds break. As I said above, we're trying our best to avoid making things break via skill-points, but there are some builds that even in just terms of strict effectiveness are too powerful and need to go, no matter how you look at it.

It's not really very constructive, in the end- and I could also point to this as an example of you saying "wow IMs suck" without saying directly that. We also DON'T nerf everything all the time, if you check out some of the logs. There's a lot of buffing occurring to bring certain playstyles up to snuff and to give players more new, varied options. It's not like we enjoy nerfing things most of the time- yeah, bringing an item down to earth can be satisfying sometimes if it was a gigantic juggernaut of broken, but most of the time it brings no real joy to us, and the way you talk makes it seem like you think we enjoy doing that. Even if it's not what you mean, it's how it comes across- to me, at least. What we DO enjoy is contributing to an interesting system and tinkering with it to improve it. If nerfs are needed, then they're needed. If buffs are needed, then we'll buff away- but buffs don't get nearly as much attention as nerfs do, I notice. For what it's worth I'm sorry that you ended up in the crosshairs of enough item changes to turn you off from the game, but it absolutely isn't our intention and, though I've said it a couple of times now, we ARE trying to be careful about that, and have been since the start really.

 

Do you even read what you’re typing? By changing items that sporadic you’re damaging your own playerbase even more than if you would just sit tight and do nothing. Thing about balancing is trying to match most, if not all things. Yes, balance is subjective, but what you have currently on the server isn't even objectively competent with each other. You’re destroying not only someone’s work on the builds, you’re actually ruining creativity and enjoyment for those who genuinely care, or in this case, cared, about the project you’re trying to run (over).


Isn’t this about fun, to play games? People do enjoy different things, but all of them can agree on fun. It might be simply relaxing, or challenging enough, or it might teach the player something for the thing to be considered fun. But this? This is stipping players of it all, making them waste what can’t be replenished – time. And the only thing you teach others by answering in such a matter is that they should not bother even trying the server out.


That’s a huge gameplay problem, but it isn’t the only one.

So why not balance everything AND make more options so everyone (or most people) will be satisfied? Why not try asking people what they want, why not work not only with Item team, but also veteran players, ones like Xyz? His stats are insane, he is a history of this place, and you treat him like he’s a nobody. Hate to disappoint, but it might be other way around with that attitude.


What about others? What about actually listening to the playerbase, taking into account what they are saying and actually committing? As someone who was working on a similar and other, more different projects, I can see that there’s not simply a lack of communication between the devs and players, but a giant void. Unless you stop treating everyone as a single consumer entity, things will fall into that void.


I’ve seen so many different servers and games fall because of this and similar problems. You’re not making the game for yourself - you’re making it for others. The sole reason Wynn is still alive is because of Minecraft popularity, as well as that loud title. “MMORPG”, right? Massive online roleplaying game? Where you can’t really pick a certain role? Where you lack quests? Proper, enjoyable, genuine story?


Oh, I know a lot about writing – lore, quests, stories, you name it. Stuff that Wynn offers is no different to visiting fanfic sites, where majority of things are written by 11 y.o. girls who want to ship their favourite youtubers. That’s lack of passion, and so is here. Problems are not only in item balancing – they’re everywhere.

So were you really doing your job, or is everything me saying, along with others which opinion opposes yours and your team, is unjustified, lies, or simply biased? Or maybe all of the above? You’ve got a lot of work to do, so stop pretending and do your job, instead of trying to do anything but that.

 

Why did virgo get -20 on defense and agility?

 

GMA buff pog

 

koh being broken was obvious, objective, and independent of usage. you're free to criticize that the item team took a wrong approach trying to nerf it, but some nerf was necessary nonetheless.

i addressed these two points in response to haisay.

strategies of that nature didn't work out, which caused the exact build destruction that you seemed to be against.

there are other people who aren't nobodies either, and they're not all going to agree with xyz. depending on how you classify 'veterans', we might never reach a valid consensus.

you're starting to equate the item team to devs and other parts of the ct. they aren't to blame for a lot of what you're venting about.

 

I'd like to add a few things:

We listen to feedback, there's a thread for feedback, we try to keep up on checking Discord, and you can always message any of us on both as well as ingame if you have any questions, suggestions, or recommendations. Please do send feedback. Please don't send it in the "hey i hate everything you guys have done, revert it or i will quit for the seventh time" format.

Believe it or not, but the eventual goal is to have a balanced endgame with as many unique designs/gimmicks/features as possible, with many different builds being the contender for "best". If you see changes that seemingly go directly against that, please do tell, and we can explain why we think a specific change helps getting us there.

To give some examples of recent nerfs that were very commonly requested by many experienced and old time players: Far Cosmos nerf was often requested. Rainbow Sanctuary nerf was often requested. King of Hearts nerf was pretty much demanded. Adrenaline nerf was often requested. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we don't listen to anyone (unless you're addressing the entirety of the CT here- please remember that we're IMs, and have little more influence than the average player when it comes to features outside of our roles. We try where we can, though), but if you have direct examples, again, please share so we can improve. Remember that we are not and can not check every remote place items get discussed, as much as I would like to.
If you want to talk more about specifics, please DM me on discord or something, even it seems like there's a lot of spite here about more than just items I'll try to see what I can do for you.

Tierstack with high strength & dexterity had to receive some additional nerfs on top of the base damage, and for Virgo specifically this translated into both not allowing it to exist on a build without a dedicated tanking item to counteract Virgo's glassiness, as well as attempt to keep it out of ETFA quad use. Note that its reqs were also lowered, so it really is just more of a precaution to not have it immediately sit at extremely high strength & dexterity & 3 tiers without a hard-to-counter downside.

 

Bart just about said everything I could say and better.

 

me about to be creative with 16th iteration of rainbow build with far cosmos rainbow sanctuary capricorn bcata bcata deye because that's soooo creative and doesn't need change

 

i'll go ahead and give my two cents, though i do agree with most of what bart and selvut and others said

unless i'm hugely misunderstanding, your big issue is that item changes mean that people have to consistently swap builds

this update seems like a really weird time to complain about that though, considering that to have most of these items in your build, you would have had to swap builds recently to get them in the build, as they only became meta recently (like fcosm, it was literally never used before 12 all, or dark shroud. koh was always nice, but only really became a hard mage req for raids and new wars, again, fairly recent.)

 

Wouldn't that make it a more appropriate time to complain since they swapped builds recently and they would have to swap it again after a relatively short amount of time

 

I think the point oinuk is tryna convey is that complaining about the item nerfs lessening their enjoyment because of the need to swap builds is weird, given that the builds in question are builds they had swapped to only a short while ago with so many new and powerful items being introduced into the meta (far cosmos, Black catalyst, Caesura Chain rule, to name a couple), and did no complaining about that at the slightest compared to what's happening now.

It's just an odd argument because with every time new items are introduced, or changes occur, whether it's buffs or nerfs, the meta is going to shift, so getting praticularly displeased about the need to change builds is odd.

And ofcourse if no drastic nerfs occur, we are going to have overpowered items dominating the scene which would lead to more powerful items being added in an attempt to diverse the item pool, and the power level is just going to rise and rise, i.e it'll either lead to powercreep, or comeplete domination of endgame by certain items, both of these are scenarios we don't want happening, and that the item team is actively trying to dance around in order to try and please the community while keeping a balanced and interesting item pool (all of this, by the way, already mentioned above by Selvut).