Any Class Experienced Builders: What's Your Thought Process When Making A Build?

I've been trying to get better at building(i suck atm LOL) and want to know:

whats your thought process when making a build?

I always get stuck at the very start, since I both don't know the meta and am not entirely sure where to start from once I have an elemental archetype that I want to build.

 

1) I usually start with chosing a weapon. If you want to choose a weapon you should firstly think of what type of build you're going for. (for example WFA spellspam) And then you choose a fitting weapon. (Look at the stats the weapons have but also certainly the base dmg which is calculated by multiplying the average damage of each element and the attackspeed multiplier) Take powderslots into account to (2 or more for powderspecials is what you're looking for).
2) If you've got a archetype you want to build and have chosen a weapon then you just think of which stats you need for that type of build. The WFA spellspam build for example would need mana regen,, spell damage(raw/% dependent on class and weapon base damage)/ elemental dmg, spell cost reductions and other stats dependent on preferences.
3) Then you look for fitting items (if you know them of of your head that's good if not wynndata.tk/items). You should then evaluate the items you get when selecting the stats you put in. You do have to take into account how damage increases apply to your weapon
4) Lastly you figure out which of the possible items fit best together by looking at EHP, dmg, mana sustain, major ID's etc.
That's about it I would say.

 

Note: personal methods, everyone has different target numbers and shiz but whatever here's my 15cents

general process

expanding on above, the "core"... varies
in most cases you'll follow the above ^ four steps, step 3 and 4 take the most time (keep iterating on your build until you get it to as good as you like I guess)

sometimes when I'm in step 3/step 4 I'll realize that my original idea in step 1) or 2) had... issues, don't be afraid to give yourself some flexibility
ex. when I first tried building ET mage I thought I would be going with bonder as the main wand (missing intel so mana regen would be important, and base is.. alright) but after going through a few iterations I realized that using event horizon would be a better choice, so i changed to that
or sometimes you try building wfa or twf and then accidentally end up building twfa :blobsweat:

for choosing items a few general things:
- raw spell dmg is much more powerful on mage/wa than archer/sh, middling on assassin, tweak your item choice to reflect this
- also more powerful with lower base damage weapons


mana

for mana sustain for spellspam builds a decent assumption that works for most players/classes (except assassin) is 6cps (clicks per second) 2-spells/second cycling
for example, mage running 1 cost meteor and 1 cost heal, if you wanted to run meteor-heal cycle you would target at least 5/5 mana regen, that way your natural mana regen and MR id combined can sustain your mana drain (2/s)

quick table if you're lazy:

Code:

Mana/sec used  |  mana regen req'd (estimate)
      2        |            5
      3        |           10
      4        |           15
      5        |    20 (not sustainable)

where 2 mana corresponds to 1/1 cost, 3 mana corresponds to 2/1 cost, 4 mana is 2/2 costing, etc etc. For the actual build I would use these numbers just as a guideline, for example I usually build 1 or 2 mana above "theoretical" due to various factors like spamming move spell/heal, slightly higher than 6cps gameplay, etc; other times I just change up my spellcycle to make up for slightly worse mana in the build.

Assassin is kinda super fudgey and the mana theory for assassin is quite incomplete but most people prefer like 10-13+ mana, and 1cost spin attack (2 or 3 multihit...) I ran some simulations that suggest for DPS/tanky assassin you actually want a mix of mana regen and mana steal but the results are... inconclusive at best.

even though mana steal is /3s (with a LOT of asterisks) you usually can't get all your MS procs so I would count mana steal as equivalent or even less than mana regen, depending on build/playstyle

rough damage guidelines

in the current meta (as of today, april 5 2021) the following numbers are... decent targets for damage for relatively balanced builds (nonmythic):

mage (balanced): 16k+ meteor
mage (glassy): 18k+ meteor
warrior (with health sustain): 13k uppercut
warrior (no health sustain): 16k uppercut
assassin (with health sustain): 6-7k spin attack (weapon depending)
assassin (no health sustain): 7.5-8.5k spin attack
archer: 10-12k bomb? idrk i am not that familiar with builds that aren't rainbow olily.
shaman: 9-10k aura

all numbers are unboosted damage, or "display damage" (basically what the builder tool will show you -- that means no vanish boost, no curse/courage/armor powder).

Keep in mind that these are only super rough damage guidelines -- adjust up or down depending on build. Tankier than meta will tend to get lower overall damage, while higher spellspam or gimmick abuse (powder special, time rift stacking etc) might get lower display damage but higher damage when considering the gimmicks heavy spell should get higher damage


ehp and health sustain

as for EHP, around 13k before agility is about the bare minimum to not get oneshot (you might still get "oneshot" by like, heavy charge+melee in quick succession...), I would recommend 20k before agility and 40k total for "relatively casual" play for "relatively experienced" players. if you're hardcore you can drop both of those numbers by about a half and still be fine

if you get hit by things, my usual guideline for health sustain is 2.5k effective "combined sustain" (effective lifesteal and health regen) if you can dodge most attacks. (Bosses in LI usually does in the ballpark of 2-8k damage before defense reductions and all that). If you get hit a lot or you are building for speedrunning, aim for closer to 5k combined.


elemental defences

:eledefs:

eledefs do matter, especially if you are playing a more tanky-side build with high defense skillpoint. In some builds (read: rage hero) it is even critical to the function of the build.

if you're only going to be doing raids you can *probably* ignore elemental defence because all raid damage is already huge anyway mm (though I am not confident here, take this with a massive block of salt)

if you don't care about theory the guideline that I use is:
- "standard" build (appx 60 or lower defense skillpoint): keep total -defense better than -400
- dodging fire build (most builds go here, probably inferno? or in my case hybrid monster): keep total -defense around -100 to -200 range
- not dodging fire build (trying to tank everything for endurabuse, or things like speedrunning): keep total -defense around -50 or better


stuff

gonna plug wynnatlas advanced search: really cool for looking for or comparing weapons
for example this query searches all bows, sorting by (rough) postpowder base damage
https://wynnbuilder.github.io/items_2.html?f=type="bow"&s=atkSpdMod(atkspd)*(sumdmg+20*slots)

and this query searches all nonmythic spears, sorting by (rough) postpowder base damage
https://wynnbuilder.github.io/items_2.html?f=type="spear"&tier<6&s=atkSpdMod(atkspd)*(sumdmg+20*slots)

big shoutout to phanta for this btw

 

yeesh thanks... i guess? this is complicated

 

If you're interested in learning more I think the best way is to join atlas inc discord if you haven't already just play with the system (in building site, and ingame to test builds) and figure out what works best for you, that "blob" is just what I found works well for me based on my own experiences and will differ slightly for everyone

 

to build on what hpp said, whenever you're working on a build don't be afraid to ask around for help! Atlas Inc discord and the wynncraft discord both have channels for exactly this purpose, and talking with others about the item pool and building is one of the fastest ways to learn it imo.

 

Why would you build with actual items, use crafted weapon/armor like me! They are sometimes sightly better than actual armor.

 

Grab pandemonium and your good

 

before building yourself you could look at stuff on wynn discord (in:#class_builds has:link youritemname)

 

i mean i would
if i had maxed profs...

 

you can start by looking at other people's builds and looking at what element combo they're building, and observe common trends people like to go for in those archetypes. It doesn't hurt to just take other people's builds and modify them if you don't like an item in the build. That's how I did things, at least

 

Tfw when Wynn becomes a literal science.

 

for me, i look at random builds from atlas inc build aid and wynncraft discord class help. I see what items are meta, then use some combination of those items in my build. If theres not an item that im aware of that fits the purpose of the build im trying to make, i just use wynndata or wynnatlas to find the item i need

 

tHuNdEr WaTeR fIrE?!

 

i agree with this; in fact, this is also how i got into class building. i want to elaborate on why it's good practice to do this though:

• you need to know the item pool. that is, you should be familiar with the commonly used items in the archetype that you're building, as well as what role they play. for example, medeis is for skill points in twf, sagittarius is for damage in xwa.

• you need to know what is optimal. it's good to begin from a build you know is solid, then proceed by either modifying it or using it as a reference. hppeng's figures are good to know for the same reason. if you're making an off-meta build, i'd recommend building a meta equivalent on the side to use as reference. this way, you have a good idea of how far you're straying.

one other thing i'd push is:

• you need to know what items are 'dominant'. dissociation will essentially dictate the rest of your build; adrenaline and capricorn don't really mind what they're working with. i advise starting from a clearly restrictive item since that narrows down the number of possibilities moving forward, which saves time finding the other pieces and optimising the overall build.
  
  i feel like most people mistakenly recommend locking in the weapon first, believing that the weapon is always the most dominant. this is usually true for mythics, but it's not always the case otherwise. for instance, on wfa archer it's not obvious whether you want to run gale's, ttide, rte, or hive bow — but efteling or the golem would make themselves a big deal there.

 

It's also important to not wrap your ego up into your builds. People criticizing your builds aren't criticizing you unless they're really bad at build criticism

 

Cannot stress enough how true this is.

Feedback from others is great. It certainly made me alot better compared to 2 months ago when it came to making builds for my friends.

It's so much fun to discuss builds and learn new things.

I think hppeng gave you some really good rules of thumb and the damage guidelines are, as hppeng rightfully stated, very rough.

I'd also like to add that, if elemental defences are not a factor(enemy), single elemental builds are pretty nice, because it is easier to scale one element as opposed to multiple.

Endurance on a tanky character which uses pure fire damage is quite powerful as an example.
Same goes for earth based builds that use Rage.

Keeping in mind buffs is also important. A war build typically uses defence potions for the extra hp vs the tower aura, so it would be a waste to invest more than 79 defence in such a build(or even less than 79 if you also use scribing scrolls). The base could be squishy, but it would leave room for more offensive options. It's perfectly fine if you make a build that needs buffs that are easy to get for higher or specific content.

 

Mmm, these numbers seem rather high. I think trying to build for those will be restrictive, I suggest a range:
Mage: 14-18k meteors
Warrior: 11k-16k uppercut
Assassin: 6-8k spins
Archer: 8-14k bombs
Shaman: 8-10k aura
(This is ignoring curse stack builds, which can go much much lower on their display damage and still be competitive
I have a prest build that only displays 12k meteors for instance that can outdamage most mage builds, same with a shaman one that only has 6k auras)

Also, investing in curse or courage can let you build on the lower end of the display damage spectrum (and get the benefits of the tankiness that comes with it), but still end up doing far more damage

The way I learned:
Took builds from other people (within defined archetypes, for instance, a TWF build) and tried to improve them, or make them more how I'd like it. Searched in wynndata for items that matched what I was looking for

EDIT:
My sustain/ehp guidelines (AKA builds that will clear content almost 100% of the time):
20k ehp pre-agi (More if I'm doing like raids, more like 30k-40k)
40k ehp total minimum (I prefer 60k+)
4k-8k ehpr/els depending on class

To Learn How To Build:
1) Try making a build
2) Fail terribly, but share it anyways
3) Receive criticism
4) Listen to criticism and learn from it
5) Repeat

I'd recommend looking at other peoples' builds, that will help you learn meta items