Item Team Poll - Uppercut Debate

Hey everyone, Bart from the Item Team here! We’ve recently discussed potential changes to Warrior that would bring it more in line with the power level of other classes, and there’s one specific subject that has been quite divisive for us, so we want your thoughts! This thread won’t be the deciding factor for anything, but player feedback is essential to us, and we don’t want to exclude the community from bringing input.

The spell in question is none other than Uppercut. Currently, it seems to be underperforming, and we’re looking to change that. In our discussions, we’ve brought it down to two options that the team agrees have the most potential, but we are split down the middle between them. Here’s the rundown!


Option 1
8 MANA UPPERCUT

Reducing Uppercut’s cost to 8 mana is the more straightforward approach. This brings Warrior’s 3rd spell in line with the other four classes regarding base mana cost. The main effects this would have is allowing spell Warrior builds to use less mana to perform similar spell loops to other classes, and making zero-intelligence builds more accessible without requiring near-perfect rolls or mythics to reach the same spell costs other classes get through more straightforward means. Additionally, Uppercut before endgame ends up being unnecessarily expensive with the low amount of intelligence and mana sustain available, and players end up rarely using Uppercut in favor of simply casting Bash more often.
This change makes Uppercut easier to use for Warriors across all levels and allows for easier use of spell cost items and generally improving the otherwise high requirements to play warrior at its best efficiency.


Option 2
CURSE UPPERCUT

A damage-vulnerability similar to the “Curse” effect on Uppercut would help in various ways to help make a 10(9?) mana cost more worth it. It would be applied on the first hit (all levels of Uppercut would have it), which would make subsequent upgrades of Uppercut more valuable as they'll send the enemy down faster, which is a buff to the timer by proxy. This also encourages Uppercancelling to get the full time out of the effect and effectively buffs the lackluster 50% damage secondary hits via the “Curse” effect. It’s uncertain what the value would be for this effect, but between a 15% and 25% damage increase seems like it would be good.
It would also help make using Uppercut more worthwhile early on, since it doesn't have much utility over Bash when you first get it in terms of damage, which adding the damage-vulnerability effect will solve by giving it a different use case. Finally, considering the damage vulnerability effect applies to mobs and isn’t a solo-strength effect, it should help solidify Warrior's role in a team. Other players will be able to take advantage of this effect and deal extra damage as well, not just the warrior itself.


Please vote for your preference on the poll above, and if you have any additional or more in-depth feedback, let us know in the comments! We’d like to hear from as many players as possible. Thank you!

The Item Team

 

jhwsgfakweghrwegAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

i agree

 

personally, i don't see where the reasoning is for the curse option

it just... doesn't fit, no?

i don't get how it would make sense, thematically or mechanically.

final thoughts: putting the highest cost spell on arguably the worst-for-spell class is kind of suck, please change thanks for listening.


edit: also, with dhydro's sp nerf (yeah i get it but i'm still going to fucking complain. wynn community btw.) the 147 intelligence sweet spot just got MUCH more difficult to hit. since no other accessory compensation was added/changed from what i'm aware, there isn't a good option to get the int in necklace spot- using durum's drops 5 int and 2 mana regen (input literally any well-reasoned rant on why mana regen is objectively better than steal on warrior).

while the curse effect might help address the issues in long fights, such as the eye, where having the curse damage buff and the war scream buff and potential curse/courage powder special (i'm assuming curse and the uppercut effect would stack) might make warrior's damage a little less reminiscent of a wet paper towel, i just don't see how this helps in other situations.

take foreskin spell build, twa or something. one uppercut can most likely one-shot a lot of minions/low level stuff (if you are ingredient farming or clearing boss minions).

the uppercut cost reduction would be valuable here, as you don't have to invest as much mana in one-shotting the weak mobs. however, for the curse option, you have to invest a larger amount of mana, but you still one-shot. even without the curse effect.

these changes are intended to buff uppercut, but the curse effect seems to only buff uppercut in situations where you are going to be damaging the target after the uppercut. (note: i do not play a lot of spell warrior so maybe twa foreskin uppercut doesn't kill 100% of minions, but i'm assuming it one-shots at least some, and thus, my point stands.)


edit 2 because i am very desperate to see base 8 uppercut in game: changing to base 8 uppercut would also likely make deye less of a "requirement" on spell warrior.

i'm using the term requirement loosely here, because you can still build spell warrior fairly well without it- cite my previous twa foreskin example.

however, getting the -1 third cost on deye is generally really sought-after on warrior spell, at least from when i build it. if i have more than 2 cost uppercuts i want to break something.

pretty much using deye saves you from needing to pull 18 intelligence sp out of your ass, because you can reach 129 for 2 cost instead of needing to get to 147.

there's probably room for a discussion about where the fuck is my -spell cost raw gear because i fucking hate anima-infused but w/e. (note that anima also needs you invest into defense, which is the issue with deye dependence. kind of indirectly nerfs a lot of other warrior builds imo.)

edit 3 because why not: not anywhere near a deciding factor, but this would probably shake up warrior building because different int/spell cost thresholds

 

wtf curse bad!!1!!1!1! 8 mana uppercuts is cooooolant

 

Uppercut hits enemies so hard it sends them flying- so it could easily be flavored as "Armor Break" or something similar. Curse was used as a descriptor because Curse also does that- it makes enemies take more damage, like the suggested effect would do for Uppercut(but to a smaller degree on the spell).

 

warrior is already loaded with stupid smallish effects so id rather not have another one to take into account honestly

 

difference being you don't really need to take this one into account in order for it to be useful, and it doesn't erase any other effects

 

ok makes sense, thanks

just a couple clarifications i'd like to ask on this.

what would be an estimate for the armor break duration (vanish is 2 seconds of damage buff, which leads to spell cycles being shoved into that range. wondering this because with this change, uppercut would still be base 10 cost so uppercancelling will still be most likely costly because of wonky spell ids and 147 int threshold.)

i'm assuming it stacks with normal curse or player-side damage buffs like totem/war scream, just wanted to check

again, assuming that this affects all damage dealt to the target, not just damage by the uppercut-caster

does it stack? (can 3 warriors all uppercut for the same effect as curse stack?)

 

I personally just think uppercut is a bad spell design, spells like multi hit and uppercut are used less than spin and bash because they take too long to complete and they displace enemies usually in a way that isnt beneficial to the player. The only way warrior can make good use of uppercut is upper canceling and that's because it takes away the few seconds of time that the enemies are in the air. Also just to touch on this, the jump feature on uppercut was just kind of an acknowledgment that the uppercut displacement made the spell terrible.

 

Warrior isn't exactly hurting for power. I think making uppercut cost 8 mana is only the beginning of making it better. To make it meta? The whole design would need to be overhauled.

 

Yeah, theme can be twisted to be whatever the mechanics need. I don't think not fitting is an especially good argument.

 

Most likely a duration of 8 seconds or so. Would change in testing but that's a number I've tossed around

Stacks with normal Curse and can stack with War Scream/Totem buffs, yeah

It would increase all incoming damage to the affected mob, not just the caster.

Not sure. I'm aware that Curse can stack, but I'm not sure that this effect should stack with itself, otherwise we'd end up in a situation where if you just get a ton of Warriors all in one place, you can make a mob take like double or more damage constantly. It would intend to stack with the powder special, but as for whether it would stack with itself I'm not sure

 

I sometimes intentionally use it to displace mobs, uppercut is warrior's "stun spell"

Uppercut is a really fun spell in terms of the mechanics it enables (uppercancelling vs upperstun, multiple uppercut, uppercut + shift uppercut + bash + charge + nonsense combos) in a way that no other spell has imo

Of course lacking in damage kinda sucks but not everything is about damage (imo)

I actually kinda like the curse idea - a flat increase to damage sounds cool, 8 mana uppercut makes uppercut more spammable but right now its already limited by cast time and not spell cost for most builds

EDIT: see below, above statement is wrong (it would make no difference for the build I play but thats def. niche), it makes a big difference for high intel warrior.)

Uppercancelling is close to maximum cast speed without wynntils anyway (or, my fingers suck, which is a possibility) so honestly a flat damage buff could bring it in line with other offensive options.

(In terms of spellcost, if hepha was -50% instead of -40% nonslayer TFA warrior would be much happier) (also its already effective -50% for other classes so eh?)

(why is mage sad, can we have multiple meteors falling please)

 

@Bart (MC) from the item team

 

would the 2nd change also boost poison damage?

 

To be completely honest, without intelligence sp nerfs to items likc aphotic, dhydro, virtuoso and so on, i would have preferred Uppercut gaining the curse effect. However, I feel like the damage buff you would receive on applying the 'vulnerable' debuff would be less than the increased dps gained by making Uppercut more "spammable" especially how it is now way harder to decrease spell costs and have good damage.

Another point is, if you want to give warrior more access to damage in the early game and improve his ability to buff overall team damage, why not look towards buffing Warscream? You could buff the strength boost given by Warscream from (0, 0, 10) to (10, 15, 2o). I'm not intending these numbers to be balanced, it's just an example. Additionally you can also just add vulnerable on warscream, it still makes sense thematically.

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I'm kinda uncomfortable with how close the votes are.

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Also im just gonna plug this here :D
https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/ideas-for-warrior-spell-changes.274846/

 

I use it the same way. Even if I’m low health I can just juggle enemies while I try to regen (just another reason stealing is terrible on warrior. This is less relevant in new LI)

Actually most warrior builders try to hit 2 mana uppercut, so...
(Warrior is not as limited by cast times, it is definitely also limited by mana costs. It is almost impossible to get enough mana sustain for 5 mana uppercancels, even for 4 mana uppercancels tbh)

I honestly don’t get where you’re getting this from? Spell spamming on mobs with crowd control immunity I can prolly cast spells 2 or 3 times faster than I usually uppercancel

Honestly even the 114 threshold for deye

YESS, I didn’t even think of that, but you’re so right. In boss rooms leading up to the eye I usually kill stuff in 1 spell cycle (even without high damage builds)

Draoi is usable too. Anime on warrior is just...have fun actually dealing damage
But yeah...5 mana uppercancel is just terrible, almost unusable imo unless you’re drowning in mana sustain

Honestly I could get on board with it if it stacked with itself (especially if it stacks in solo play).

Honestly I agree with hppeng, using uppercut to juggle enemies is a really good strategy, and uppercanceling is one of the things that make warrior fun and unique imo

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I’m in favor of 8 mana uppercut. 4 mana uppercancel is almost entirely needed on warrior, and getting there right now takes spell cost items, which is a huge hit to dps, especially if you want to use Atlas

Curse just isn’t interesting or powerful enough to me to give up 8 mana uppers. (Unless it stacks with itself)
Also assuming the “curse” effect is multiplicative, if not, then I’m definitely not in favor of it. (Unless it stacks with itself, and depending on how long it lasts)

 

I am bad and don't play enough intel warrior
do you wynntils or click? maybe my fingers suck I definitely can't cast that fast lol, until I got better at it my muscle memory for uppercancelling was just spam as fast as you can

after a bit of building I agree with the statement about 10 -> 8 being significant though, I was wrong about this

(but also, if you think about the cost reduction, assuming you have 1 cost bash and 2 cost -> 1 cost uppercut, you save 30% mana per cycle, a 33% curse (and you just cycle slower) could give you the same dps, and would help non-129 intel builds more -- 68 intel 5->4 is not nearly as dramatic)

 

On my warrior revamp thread, I personally made bash 2 less mana, but it had the overall same effect, mostly when used in combination.
Looking back on it, I would probably make uppercut 8 mana vs making bash 4, but I did it specifically because I also lowered the damage of bash, but made it more of a utility spell.

Personally, think the real first talk that should be had is with bashes walk speed debuff.
Giving it more crowd control is overall more important then making uppercut less mana.