Immortality - An Issue Never Talked About.

You can still be immortal more or less on the high end of the curve.
Plus its a debuff to people on the mid to low end, which hp regen legitmetally needs.

I personally think the issue lies in the mythics, which allow you to go from a reasonable 3k or 4k max hp regen, to an absurd 12k to 14k.
Namely boreal is a large problem child in my eyes.

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If mythics are the issue then fix mythics.
I never said I wanted the whole game to be rebalanced around mythics, I said being able to become litterally immortal is an issue.

 

The thing is that people WANT to play the game, enjoy the thrills and have fun, but immortal tanks doesn’t allow that.

With them, the game pretty much plays itself at that point.

So yes immortal tanks are obviously op, but that isn’t much of a problem because going down that route is near unimaginably boring. Nobody would want to do that, playing games are meant to be full of thrills, adventure and fun.

Therefore people choose builds that allow some risk, so they can feel like they’re present and active in this imaginary world.

 

Ok, my problem with this is that it has no relevance. Nobody actually uses builds that can afk the eye (and I'd like to echo btd in asking for a build that can solo the eye in less than 12 minutes but also afk it). And implying that builds that can afk the eye are op is like saying Alec's thorns EO solo build was op. Yes, possible, but not OP. Saying it is op is completely ignoring every other aspect of class building in wynn.

Also, to even achieve this it requires a concentrated effort. You have to try to make a build immortal. At first I thought this was a discussion on super duper ultratank builds, which actually are creatable even without mythics, but are not "unkillable." Builds that can afk the eye (and get good damage, which I still haven't seen such a build) would certainly require mythics. And if it did:
1) The average player doesn't have access to it, so it doesn't matter too much.
2) Players who do have access to these mythics could easily build something that could solo any endgame content a thousand times easier. I know you said that ultratank builds didn't have a similar amount of ease to literally unkillable builds, but I've used ultratank builds. There is no reason to go past ultratank into immortality at the massive cost of damage, because you don't really die as an ultratank player anyways. It would be like wanting 20k hpr instead of 10k hpr even though you only have 10k health, its overkill and pretty much useless. As long as you can out-sustain the damage you take, you are effectively immortal.
3) If you are buying a mythic and specifically building to be unkillable, I see no problem with it, because you are sacrificing damage or other aspects of your playstyle to do this. It comes at a cost, an often unnecessary cost.

Also, if mythics were considered in balance (besides being balanced amongst the pool of mythics), it would make the game nearly impossible for the average player. Imagine if the eye's healthpool was balanced around Divzer's damage, nobody would be able to beat it. Nerfing mythics isn't the answer either, cuz they're mythics. They're supposed to be the best weapons in the game, and to break game balance, they are supposed to have higher base damages and stats than normal weapons. They should be balanced amongst themselves, but shouldn't be compared to legendaries, or the options of the average player.

 

You're remembering wrongly. Until the change, it was always a regen every 10 seconds that halted if you took damage from any source. After the change, it was every 4 seconds regardless of any outside damage sources.

 

Ok item teams, heard it here first.
You can nerf Mythics, even if they provide some broken combo, or are just relatively too good.
I have a good question for the item team. Why did you guys nerf cata? Why did you ever nerf strati?
Mythics don't need to be balanced, duh lol.

https://wynndata.tk/s/507mof
Literally, just slap. It won't even take 12 mins, probably not even 7.

Saying the average player doesn't have access to something is the same logic that would suggest no mythics need to be nerfed or buffed.
The average player doesn't have access. Why nerf toxo? The average player doesn't have access. Why did they fix super fast 100k uppercut builds? The average player didn't have access?
On that note, why do they nerf anything? The more broken something is, the more expensive it will be, so the more expensive, the less accesses the average player has.

It's also often not a very high cost.

 

I apologize, I don't mean to keep pestering you, but would it be possible for you to do a recording with that build or something? I have a very hard time believing that build can sub 7 the eye. Even my 52k uppercancel Hero build averages a 5 minute run.

 

A lot of that time is due to the between stages though.
Plus, I said probably. I will see the exact time. If I had to guess, I would say about 8 - 9 mins, but as I said, 7 is probably possible with perfect play.

 

Also, my argument about mythics not being considered in normal item balance is kind of stupid now that I think more about it

I was mostly trying to say this isn't relevant to the average player, but it was stupid to say mythics should be exempt from being nerfed, I didn't really mean it that way.

 

i believe this has been talked about though lol

combat-viable immortal builds really came up after hp regen started working in combat and was changed to /4s. i believe the latter change came out in april this year, and the thing is, health regen items havent properly been adjusted to the new, faster ticks (eg. boreal hasnt been changed since and hetusol and cancer even received hpr buffs in 1.19.4, which was after hpr was accelerated lol).

boreal for one has been a ridiculous item, especially for the past half a year. it's just not often talked about since most players prefer not to take the trade-off of having to get 75 def and agi and accept the damage loss which inevitably follows. does that make it balanced? as youve shown in your example builds, not really. you still can build a decent bit of damage on top of being immortal, and i dont think thats fine. as i mentioned, the current high hpr items seem outdated and im pretty surprised even the current running item log isnt addressing them, though im expecting/hoping for them to get diminished soon(ish)

and as others have already said, immortal builds by themselves arent something that need to be removed from the game. it's currently just too easy to make an immortal build also have alright damage, which is the part that needs fixing. simply put i'd suggest giving current hpr items overall lower hpr so youre forced to wear more of them and sacrifice more potential damage that way.

all in all a pretty trippy thread. i do agree that full-tanks having "unviable" damage is just misinformation, but the issue itself definitely has been gone through in some class building chats (again, fucking boreal lol)

 

Then what's the issue with nerfing mythics that allow very specific players to become immortal?
I think very specifically that Boreal is a big problem child here, it alone tends to push otherwise slightly tank builds into the realm of ultra tanky.
I understand that it's the point of the boots, but they simply give you much health regen %.

It's also the reason I think health regen is hard to balance.
There's a large gap between what's possible with and without mythic.

This isn't even going into the fact that I'm not sure tanks should be self-sustainable.
It MASSIVELY undervalues support builds, which is another issue that I don't want to talk about today (That being that support builds are somewhat ignored.)

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This is literally my opinion.
The only expectation is I'm fine with the mid-range of Hp regen.
I think the higher amounts you can get by using things like boreal are where the issues start to come in.
I also disagree with this statement.

Specifically because of a few different meta through the years:
Life steal on war scream,
100% defense warriors with some element defense after that,
and finally, life steal exploding was pretty strong, though I'm not sure if I count it.
I think the main offense in the ones I just listed was 100% defense warriors.

 

I totally agree with that, endurance and concentration are a bit ludicrous, and can bring ultratank damage into a range that even outdamages offensive builds.

I agree with that too, honestly, my 1.3k hpr builds is just enough sustain to be comfortable, and I still get a bit of fear at bosses like robob and death metal. Even my 2.5k hpr build is sometimes rattled by the Eye. I don't see too much of a problem with that, since lifesteal is a good option as well. (Granted I built these without armor powders in mind, so they weren't pure tanks, nor were they "immortal," they were what I consider to be a balance between sustain and damage)

Idk about cancer, but Hetusol wouldn't be too broken if endurance and concentration didn't exist. Because without armor powders pure tank builds still underperform by a pretty high margin.

 

why is this thread in existence then lol

ya but talking about the currently existing immortal builds

 

It was meant to be about how to solve the issue, but everyone is arguing that it's not an issue at all. I was hoping for a bunch of ideas on how we could possibly fix it.

 

Give them negative soul point regen

Ez fix

 

Just nerf powder specials lol.


Honestly I think powder specials should only give utility buffs. It's too easy to boost not traditionally powerful items to ungodly amounts of damage within a few clicks.

 

@JaydonTheWarrior Ah yes, I've arrived at the dead sea, the saltiest place on earth xDDDD
All seriousness though, having played WFA archer (and guardian warrior on alt account) religiously, I can confidently say that this all seems much too familiar. Unless I find a boss with elemental defense in my weapon damage, slowly but steadily, ill out dps the hpr of the boss. With my guardian warrior, I was tanky as shit an still out dps'ed EO boss solo, but that fight took around 20 minutes... on the contrary with my grimtrap assassin i solo'ed the boss confidently within less than 10 minutes, just using a little brain. Overall, tank builds, and immortal builds are an easier way to play, but they are and always will be, the slower, less optimal, and less fun (unless you're like me for whatever reason) option. There's a reason there's a mutual agreement that "tanks aren't in a good spot right now" which I hear almost daily any time I play Wynn. Im not gonna be like everyone else and give my opinion and leave, and I'm gonna do my best to suggest solutions like you seem to want. Two things come to mind, neither of which require nerfing the tank itself.

Option One: Nerf powder specials. I've been making tank builds for quite a while, and its come to the point where the simple equation: "No good damage? Courage and endurance slap!" solves damage problems of every type. And you could effectively make yourself as tanky as you wish, and regardless, still have damage with powder specials. Though through opinion, endurance nerf would be WAY better than courage nerf because it would give more incentive to use the "Air" portion of "WFA".

Next, and arguably my favorite
Option Two: Wipe Mechanics. In EO, im sure you know there's a mechanic where wretches will advance from the back of the room and if you don't kill it in time, the boss will blow everyone out of the water, or for tanks, take away a good 90% of your health. These interesting mechanics, if added in the future, require actual skill to conquer instead of just mindless immortality or damage that would make immortality so much more difficult to maintain, while still making all tank builds feel no less powerful than they were before.

That's just my take. Thoughts?

 

Alright, I know I kinda already threw in my two-sense, but what’s your take on consumables?
Pretty much any build is immortal with sp pots, health potions, or crafted consumables.

 

i think having a mechanic that drains the players hpr skills would be a good solution

Like maybe add "effects" bosses can put on players that gives them lets say 50% less hpr (As in the current hpr * 0.5, not -0.5)

 

Hmm, that would just force players to use pots (assuming it suppressed lifesteal as well). And players hate to use pots.

 

A few ways to help this problem might be to:
(Also, this is mostly with the idea of “team play” in mind since I think most people use average or at most ultratank builds, with very few people using immortal builds)

Introduce more mechanics involving team play or encouraging someone to play offensively (wretches, for instance, force people to play decently offensive even if they don’t want to, and if you don’t do enough damage no build is immortal, I learned that the hard way with AOR Dawnbreak)

Things to make tanks actually useful in team play/make endgame content that is suited for teamplay (this kinda skirts the issue of “immortality” being a problem and instead gives you a reason to be immortal, or creates a role for it)

Nerf the op-ness of armor powder specials so that tank builds can’t get ridiculous damage. (This would make playing “immortal” builds more punishing as you couldn’t reach decent levels of damage so you’d be encouraged to build more offensively)

Maybe reduce the effectiveness of consumables or something? (I honestly don’t see the problem with this, but if the problem is self-sustaining builds consumables are the bane of this)

Also, nerfing heavy melee since many heavy melee builds can reach nice damage while being able to face tank nearly everything. (I’m not necessarily for this since heavy melee was my only option at one point due to having a bad computer, plus it’s a super boring playstyle, but if the topic is immortality, heavy melee is a major culprit)

Also, possible solutions affect warriors the most as archers and assassins can avoid damage easily and mage and shaman can heal. Making “sustainability” hard would make the already worst class absolutely cancer to play.

Also also, any changes to hpr would affect EWF and WFA far more, while leaving life steal archetypes (like ETF, TFA, and EWA) practically untouched. I mean, that would also kinda fix the problem slightly, but it’d be a sad fix in my opinion since it would hedge people out of EWF and WFA and I think variety makes Wynn awesome