Immortality - An Issue Never Talked About.

This is an issue I never really seen discussed, or ever really acknowledged.
The issue being that when specking into a hyper defensive build, near-immortality, or even literally immortality, has been achievable sense Gavel. Now, this within itself is normally acknowledged, it is however often completely overlooked due to misinformation on these tank builds, that being that they don't deal enough DPS to kill anything.

This is were a rant starts, as this is simply wrong. I'm not even sure where this belief started frankly, as, in all of my career of being a hyper tanky warrior, there has never been a moment in which I've been unable to out DPS a bosses HP regen. In fact, I would go so far as to say the damage offered by full tank builds isn't even that bad. A full tank build in the modern-day ends up with around, or above, 10 mana regen, and while they only tend to have 5 - 20 spell damage, they also have access to air Mythics. I'm not saying the DPS is good in comparison to other builds mind you; when I say the DPS is "not that bad" I mean it's "NOT THAT BAD".

It's worth pointing out that having an unkillable character that can solo everything has many issues, from simply being boring, to devaluing the role of support builds. Salted as of late has been attempting to make each update harder than the last, in order to get players to actually work together on content. Frankly, so long as immortal tank warriors or even mages exist, I don't see it happening. Let me know your thoughts on the matter.

 

Hmm, I see your point, but I mean even if you can do damage it’s not exactly fun to go on a 16 minute EO run, or a 40 minute LI run, when a slightly less tanky build (with much higher damage) can shave many minutes off the run.
(Those LI numbers might be exaggerations, I haven’t timed my ultratank runs)
(EDIT: Also, I’m talking bout spell warrior, since Heavy Melee can easy do damage and be immortal. But Heavy Melee is super boring to me)

I do enjoy playing ultratank, but I gotta say I am starting to enjoy using slightly glassier builds too, because despite not being immortal, they are still pretty damn hard to kill while still doing damage. And in my opinion, more fun.
I see your point in that not making collaborative content as likely though, and I don’t really have a solution to that.

(Also: I love you Hero)

 

I think it may be an issue when I'm able to solo the hardest boss in the game by afking.
(This isn't ironic, I have 13 thorns, and I'm able to AFK on through the Eye. I've never done it before, but logically I'm able to do it with enough time.)
Also, mind, this isn't about whether it's enjoyable. I find being literally immortal not fun in the slightest. Whether or not it's enjoyable doesn't factor into this discussion at all.

 

There's nothing to argue then. Immortality is outclassed by other builds. Yes, it's usable, but often not optimal.

 

Your points are all good, except you're not really shedding a light on an issue no one talks about. Can solo everything isn't really a problem, it's the question of how well it does it. "Full-tank" builds frankly are really not good at doing these in short times, except gimmicky ones which use mythics or such. The DPS thing also is mostly true, due to some bosses having high hpr walls (good example: Dr Legendary) which tank builds really don't do well against, you might be able to kill it, but it will take a long amount of time, or not be able to kill it at all. Yeah sure some builds which are basically "full" tanks exist which can do these kinds of bosses in reasonable times, but they rely on mythics or mythic gimmicks or other gimmicks, which I would say are mostly exceptions, especially mythics as they should never be considered in archetype balance as by definition they are outliers.

Keep in mind here I am referring to builds made just for tanking, with next to none focus on damage. If the definition of Immortality is just not dying then basically all builds with good sustain should be considered immortal, if you mean immortal by barely playing actively then not.

TDLR;
Reason of not choosing ultra tank isn't just not being able to kill things, it's not being able to kill in reasonable time or not being able to kill at all sometimes

 

You do have a point here...



https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/king-of-hearts-eo-solo-no-consumables-complete.267632/

I wouldn’t say unkillable in some instances like The Eye but if you know what you are doing, then yeah it does become a problem. The only other ways to fix it other than boss hpr is to introduce mechanics that deal true damage and damage based on % max hp.

 

I will say that right now I don't think it's that much of a problem, as everything is easily soloable with non-tank builds by, you know, not getting hit, but it could pose a problem if the developers do indeed plan on adding any type of actually difficult endgame challenge. I agree wholeheartedly though. Immortal builds shouldn't exist in my opinion, regardless of whether they're able to do damage or not. Even if tank builds aren't "optimal" like some people say (whatever that means, if you mean speed wise sure, but having a 0% chance of dying while being able to solo everything seems pretty optimal to me), it almost entirely removes skill from the game, which wasn't exactly abundant to begin with.

 

Its worth saying. Sure you can solo everything faster, the thing you have to consider is there is risk in that. There isn't a risk in the slightest when playing a full tank build.

I also think the game doesn't do enough for support builds, and having self sufficent tanks doesn't help that.

--------------

On a different note, I was hoping to get more on how you guys would fix this? Any ideas?

 

tl:dr please

 

Mate it's like 250 words and the OP's opinion on the subject is pretty clear from the title alone. What is there to TL;DR about?

 

oh i thought that said Immorality
and even if it is just 250 words, its a big block of text and i would rather just have it shortened

 

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with being able to go full tank and beat bosses. Builds shouldn't need to have difficulty beating out mob healing, ever. That's just artificial difficulty.

 

Faster is an understatement. You use the EO thorns example, yet that takes 4.5 hours. I think it's safe to say literally no one will do that. you could lootrun for a better build/find a party to do EO with in way less time, less than a quarter tbh, 100%.
I don't see the "problem" here- mob regen has actually been getting removed for a while, in order to ALLOW tank builds to work. The trade-off of relatively low damage for low to no risk is how it works, if people want the safer option- I think that's fine, it will just take them forever. you have to remember most players do not have your experience or builds. So for most players, especially newer ones, they likely will not have good damage if they build tanky.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove with those random build stats- 10mr isn't very good unless you use a lot of spell cost items or intelligence, and the spell damage is pretty low. You might be able to access air mythics- but remember, that's YOU. Most people do not have the money or time to lootrun/buy mythics, and balance has never been made around mythics (and that's a good thing.) You can solo EO in sub 5 minutes with divzer, does that mean they should buff the eye? No, of course not. You can achieve really high damage and good tankiness with most mythics. Does this mean all endgame content should be reworked? Not at all.

 

imo immortal builds should exist and should be able to just beat out bosses without any real challenge, the challenge should come in the time it takes to kill that boss

 

hopefully the new ''incredibly hard boss'' coming in 1.20 is strong enough to defeat even immortal people with ease

(or maybe not because that'd be bad for us mortals)

 

Then not-so-amazing players will have no chance, so hopefully it will be optional challenge only

 

I never said the way to fix it is to give bosses regen.

The amount of time it takes to kill something isn't a difficulty.
With these builds it will happen, there is literally no chance that it won't.
Druser literally just mention artificial difficulty, if this is a cut and dry example of artificial difficulty, then I'm not sure what is.

Suggesting that I could literally only use thrones to kill the hardest boss in the game was an extreme example.
It's not a particle, but how extreme it is, is meant to point out how absurd the issue is.
Realistically I can kill the eye in about 7-12 mins with a full tank build.

First off, to say it takes "forever" is simply a massive overstatement.
Bosses take around 5 to 7 more mins, and with something like LI that adds up sure, but you act as if 7 additional mins of someone's time is such a massive waste, that the trade-off in literally being able to mindlessly face tank a boss, in the most boring way possible, is simply not worth it.

You DO have intelligence bud, you forget the 3rd tank state is literally intelligence.

This is just objectively false with the modern market.
Most players can afford at least 1 mythic by the time they finish the game, due to the amount of money you get from the quest.
Not all that, but I'm not sure how this suggest, in any way, that the way to fix the issue is to buff the fuck out of bosses.
With you're suggesting the mythics are the issue, then maybe, I'm not sure, nerf the mythics.
I'm not sure where the hell you got the idea I was suggesting that we should buff bosses.

 

Is this not a two way street? Doesn't the player having comically high defense relative to the thing they are fighting - with no notable drawback and for no particular reason- receive the same criticism of being a numbers difference that mars the experience? You can claim artificial difficulty, but think about why artificial difficulty is a buzzword in design and what the actual reasoning behind it is. You'll find that sitting there not engaging with any of a boss's mechanics because you decided that you wanted to be a tank follows the same trope of "numbers preventing meaningful interaction and experience".

No, I don't think that the game should be designed encompassing the idea that players should be able to NOT engage with any of the mechanics and thus the game. This is an anti-pattern. The design of bosses and game mechanics should not be limited by the idea that the player can choose to ignore everything and sit there pressing left and right mouse button until they get to move on. If such a playstyle is accommodated for, then the players it is accommodating probably do not want to play the game in the first place, and thus it can only be robbing those who ARE interested of a potentially better experience.

 

Health regeneration doesn't pause when you get hit. What if you changed that?

 

What mechanics, lol?
In LI the only mechanic is damage

In EO you HAVE to deal with wretches even with a tank build, and unless you can afford mythics you have to avoid the eye laser.

Being tanky isn’t “not engaging with the game,” it’s playing it safely. Wynn doesn’t have many boss fighting mechanics except in EO, and EO mechanics cants be ignored.

________________________________

It’s a trade off though. As you said, that time adds up. It’s the cost of tankiness. More offensive builds can do the content with a similar amount of ease with drastically higher damage.

Also weapon balance should NEVER be based on mythics. Mythics being op isn’t the problem. Mythics should be op.