What Is Endgame Content?

So this is a discussion thread, and this time I want to ask a question that may seem simple but when you think about it it might be way harder to answer than you expected: What is endgame content?

As a CT member I hear about it a lot, so I was just wondering what do y'all consider endgame content? Maybe give some examples from other games that do it well or examples of endgame content in wynn itself. What should endgame content have in your opinion too?

Hope y'all participate, I'll try to answer some interesting replies Oo

 

honestly the trade market
mythic or other valuable item trading is easily the most extensively played aspect of the game for high level players - maybe this isnt considered traditional "content" haha

 

imo anything past level 103, where there's no more quests. it could be warring, profs, etc. as to adding more endgame content, there's one thing that games do a lot; a "master mode" of some sort, where the difficulty scales even further.

 

in my opinion, a raid boss and more challenges like LI are pretty good endgame content


oh and wars

 

But I wouldn't say that's really endgame content, because it'd still be part of the "game" itself. I see endgame content as being something more replayable and long term outside of the "main game".

 

At this point of the game, I consider the following things as endgame content: Qira, LI, Orange Wybel, Corrupted Dungeons, EO, AHC Bosses, Guild Wars, Lootruns, Challenge modes

Because LI was added over 4 years ago, I would like to say that it needs an update/expansion in 1.20

 

Getting rich is the real endgame.

 

class builds :crab:

 

Endgame content for me is usually split into 3 sections, money, content, and gear.

Content
Any content that is done after the main content of the game is over. In Terraria, for example, endgame is just after you beat the final boss (Moon Lord). Usually in singleplayer games it's the point of when the character starts to really just not need to care about dying and the actual content, and more just about chilling and just doing fun shit. In Wynn, anything after AHC is endgame for me. The problem is that there's just not much to really do at endgame. Yeah you got the Eye as a pretty good bossfight to run over and over, but to be honest, there's just no point in doing the Eye for that long. There also is getting to level 106 and that's nice but to be honest it's hard carried by mob totems, dxp, and dungeon parties. But, you can argue that it's fine for endgame to not have that much content because that's well... Endgame. For me the most important thing is to have a challenge that you can come back to with a huge skill ceiling.

Gear
In gear it's much more straightforward. It's just when you have the best gear of your type. Some games like Terraria again, or Hypixel Skyblock have more linear progression to their gear systems. Wynn has a more indirect approach that allows for a lot more classbuilding and optimizing. For most people endgame in items is level 80. Not much to say here because to be honest, Wynn mostly has gotten it down. Though, I do see a lot of people complaining about Mythics being RNG based, and not rewarding actual good players, which is a fair argument, but IMO that is a needed evil because without Mythics being this rare, the Wynn Economy would kinda just be wack.

Money
For money I classify endgame as when you don't really need the money for anything, and are just collecting it for the sake of collecting it. Usually this is the last stage of endgame a player goes through before they quit. In Wynn it's the longest in my opinion, but I'm not really that focused on market so I don't really wanna talk about it.

For me Wynn's endgame is just pretty boring. There's just not that much of a challenge to put up with anymore. And there's not really a big money sink in Wynn to put your time into, yeah there's profs but with how grindy they are it's just not that fun. I personally would love to see a big challenge in Wynn, maybe having mythics be almost required to beat it. I would also be fine with maybe a leader-board of sorts that's actually displayed in Wynn. Thinking about it now, another big reason of the drought of endgame content is that there's just not many people in the community to look up to. In other games you have one or a few players that everyone wants to be but in Wynn it's just pretty bland. That's another story though and I doubt Wynn CT can change that.

TLDR: Harder content is my ideal

 

did someone mention housing i would like to have a family and job and men

 

I don't know what it is, but I am certainly not there.

 

Endgame for me : anything that proves itself difficult if not insanely difficult even using the best possible gear at the very end of the game thus nothing in Wynncraft (maybe EO) can be considered Endgame now.

 

Here's what I think endgame content is:
- PvP (Hunted mode attempted this but fucked it up)
- New Challenges. Stuff like LI, Qira Hive, EO. Things that you attempt to test out your new build and what not.
- Guilds
- Chill stuff like Seavale Reefs and the Wynnter Fair. Where you can just chill out, collect some items and get some money/items while doing it.

Currently in the process of leveling my mage to 105. After that I'll probably stop playing Wynn. I'll still join here and there, but to me the only thing I can do is loot running, which I find extremely boring. Also kind of annoying that it's the only real viable method to get money. If you are rich or not is determined by RNG, which to me sucks. (of course it's just my opinion though)

I just really want a good PvP mechanic. Something that is balanced and fun. To me, that'll be enough for me to stay. PvE is cool and all, but at some point it becomes boring.

 

If you are to include the word "content" then I would define it as the major parts of the game with high replayability that give players at that stage of the game more unique and meaningful experiences that they can enjoy. Examples of this (not necessarily from Wynn) would be unique challenges, dungeons, world bosses, and PvP.

Good endgame content should be highly enjoyable for all, challenging even for those who are maxed out, and designed in a way so that players have just as much fun doing it over and over again. Such content should also provide incentive to do them, such as exclusive rewards. This may make such content grindy, but if designed well with a large selection of things one could do, that is perfectly okay as it makes the grind enjoyable.

I'd say that Wynn is actually quite lacking in good endgame content, and endgame content in general. There are only a handful of boss altars, challenges, one endgame dungeon, and no decent pvp.

MHW Iceborne has decent endgame if you want an example from another game. I'd rather not eat up this entire post explaining it though.

I would not consider things such as trade market, lootrunning (the way it is currently anyways), mindless mob grinding, or class building, as endgame "content". Sure, they're still part of the endgame, but:

1. They can be done at other stages of the game.
2. More importantly, they do not introduce any new purposeful things to do at the endgame (at least not by themselves). These things are more like things you do on the side.

The parts of the endgame which are more simple and not what I would define as "content" are perfectly fine as part of the endgame and can even enhance it, but having them there without any actual content makes the endgame feel stale and pointless.

 

complaining about content droughts

that's what you do in wynn once you reach endgame.

jokes aside, due to the limited replayability of most of wynncraft, most players kind of become inactive in game until new exciting updates happen, or go into the endless grindfest of professions.


i feel like wynn's endgame content has a large pool of activities, such as professions, lootrunning, eo, li, guilds, etc, but they all become stale really quickly. having a functional pvp system might help add variability, just due to the fact that you are playing against unique things (except for some will always be more prevalent than others, due to mechanics like vanish and heavy melee)

 

The problem with MMOs is keeping someone entertained with content after they're already experienced everything. In normal non-mmos, this doesn't need to be done since the goal for singleplayer games is to get you to the endgame, not past the endgame. A main goal for MMOs is to keep you hooked to the game for as long as possible, and obviously, you do that with "infinite content" or a sorta frame of that. I'm not a game developer, but I think I know a fair bit of what I'm talking about so please bare with me :)). Lemme explain my thoughts (You can skip to the bottom for my actual specific suggestions):

Endgames must be fun:
To keep a player on your game, you need to have content that brings new experiences to a player for a long time. An example like this would be guild wars, professions, loot running, etc. However, these tasks become repetitive and grindy to a point of no enjoyment, and little reward. Loot running can give money, but some people spend 12+ hours just to make a couple stacks profit (too rng), professions take ages for such a mindless task (left clicking is NOT endgame) and guild wars aren't engaging enough and have no rewards (harder content = more engagement, more rewards = more engagement). These are all major problems in the endgame currently, and while some of them don't NEED to be fixed, that brings me to point #2.

Endgames must be plentiful:
Imagine a game where you did the same exact thing over and over again for hours. Compare that to the same game, but you can choose which mindless task you'd like to do and can switch things up a bit. I'm not the greatest with analogies, but my point is that endgames must have TONS of unique content a player can switch between when they get bored of one. The professions update was a SOLID push in the right direction, allowing for new unique content. Unfortunately, for over a year of work, not everyone enjoys professions (I, myself, find them too complex and too mundane, but not everyone agrees) but if there were many other endgames, then maybe 1 or 2 are bound to grab my attention.

Endgames must be rewarding, even to min-maxed players:
Wynn has tons of rich 20 mythic, 999 stacks of LE players. Endgames should feel rewarding to those who already have it all. Examples like cosmetics and housing can feel rewarding and satisfying when a player makes something that looks nice.

Endgames should have RNG, but not depend on them:
Endgames should not use RNG as the only factor for high content. People will get burnt out if the RNG gods are not in their favor. Yes, RNG in games is almost necessary, but depending on it can be unhealthy. I think you get what i mean, so finally...

Endgames should be challenging, but not hard:
Hard and challenging are very different in the context I believe. Hard games are like dark souls, where everything can murder you instantly, challenging games have goals that seem so close if you just put in effort or start thinking. Buffing mob levels and damage makes a game harder, but buffing a mob's AI makes it challenging. This is why many people complain about level scaling in video games. My point is that if you want to make endgame content, try steering away from this "hard" difficulty and try to be challenging. Not that hard content is bad, it's just much less fun for people who keep dying cuz they got 1shot from behind, yknow?

My ideas:

• Cosmetics (i get these are already monetized so maybe not)

• Player housing and/or build plots (not like creative mode)

• More rewarding guild content (guilds don't benefit players outside of flexing, which isn't bad but there needs to be actual substance to flex. Also make warring more engaging and add other ways to compete)

• Challenging bosses around the world

• Item upgrades and/or enchantments (but make them not easy to get, otherwise rich nerds will just buy them and be bored again)

• Frequent events (procedural or not, in-game events that aren't just dxp can make players wanna get back in)

• Re-balancing of PvP (this should not be a reward thing)

• Prestige levels (I don't know about this one honestly, it sounds cool in theory but i know many ways it can go wrong. Games like diablo handle it nice so maybe Wynn can do the same? Not sure honestly, but its a thought)

• More ways to achieve the same goal (an example is dungeons and grinding both being good level up methods)

• Chill content (I saw this suggested a little while up and i agree, not all endgame has to be intense over the top grinding, some can be chill and relaxing while still being effective. The problem here is boredom. A good example of a game that does this correct is stardew valley)

Let me know how stupid my ideas are

 

"Endgame" is a very loose term, and can describe loads of things. Generally, endgame in Wynn starts once you've finished all quests on your first class. It's not exact, but this is usually the point people know the game and don't have an immediate next objective. As by my own definiton of endgame, it's the moment a player has completed a main story or objective of a game, and moves on to a postgame that doesn't really end.

In Wynns case, this means more than people might make it out to be. A list of activities I consider to be part of endgame:

- Acquiring wealth. The easiest answer. The ways people go about it can be different, but it all comes down to gaining more money and therefore better items, and being able to do anything else in Wynn better. Loads of things fall under getting more money: lootrunning, playing the market, professions (both gathering and crafting), powerleveling classes, grinding out scrap/Seavale reef, grinding out dungeons or Legendary Island for more items, and probably a couple more things I've forgotten.
- Getting good. Now Wynn isn't a hard game on its own, but player-made and official challenges help out a lot. Getting good is related to getting money, but it's also enjoying the challenges and getting the satisfaction from finishing them. This includes dungeon runs (with gimmicks, usually), Legendary Island (also with gimmicks), the cool challenge modes, and even pvp if you're that kind of person. I think even time-dependent challenges related to professions and lootrunning can full under this.
- Exploring and discovering. Or something like that. It's not "true" endgame content, but many players end up spending hundreds of hours exploring the map, finding discoveries, fighting boss altars and experiencing things in a new and different way with another class.
- Getting numbers. Having higher numbers than others is a legitimate driving force for many people, and especially professions grinders tend to fall under this goal.
- Guilds. Getting into guilds, doing things together, warring for territories, not warring, there are a ton of fun things to do with and in guilds. It's less in-game content and more community done content, but it's still for a very large part in-game.

However, I'll be the first to admit that the game itself alone would never keep so many people playing as much as they do. None of this is really somthing the CT can improve on, but it should be mentioned when discussing Wynns endgame.

- Forums and Discord. Writing guides, discussing things, making suggestions, doing forum games (do we even talk about this one?), theorizing, sharing moments & memes, shitposting, helping others, more shitposting, the community active on forums and Discord is pretty great, and a big reason or many people to stay around.
- Class Builds. The big one for me, making builds, recipes, optimizing things, learning things about Wynns mechanics, and discussing about items or ingredients 24/7. This aspect extends to everyone trying to minmax or optimize things in Wynn from the theoretical level, of course.
- CT/Staff. Yeah, I think you could consider joining the CT and helping work on the game to be a valid endgame activity, as odd as it may sound. As social-based as Wynns endgame tends to be, being able to help others enjoy it even more is pretty much a part of endgame as well.

However, when you put the community aspect aside, Wynns endgame is not particularly amazing. I don't have a lot of MMO experience to be able to compare, but the in-game reasons and ways to grind aren't the best. Professions are extremely tedious, especially for the amount of time they waste, and lootrunning can either be extremely rewarding and end up getting you rich and bored within a couple weeks, or you might end up having months to work on reaching a certain goal of LE. Warring is.. mindbogglingly boring and only interesting because of the PVP aspect. PVP is a common endgame thing to go about in other games, but we all know the state of Wynns PVP at the moment. Not going to go in-depth about what could and what should be changed about that here. Getting better or challenging yourself is definitely the best endgame content currently available, but it's not something for a lot of people, that don't enjoy limiting themselves or simply don't have the time.

Improving it is pretty touchy, though. Obvious things to get out of the way: overhaul hunted mode, give something extra to guilds, add more dungeons/bosses/discoveries/areas/quests/etc, reduce lag, housing. A more interesting topic is how things should be made harder, as I feel like multiple people with mythics being required for one challenge is pretty much missing the point, but it would end up being quite easy for those exact same people. Adding new features is really the main thing, but those do generally take a lot of time, and it's extremely hard to make it "proper" endgame- remember when professions were never intended to be finished in any way?

In short, endgame is always in need of more endgame, as as long as we keep getting new updates that add new features every once in a while (like professions, the Trade Market and the challenge modes have been), I think y'all have been doing great in terms of adding endgame content the last few updates.