Info Item Team Thread - Item/ingredient/major Id Changes, Updates & More (updated 28/03/2020)

I mean I really compared tide and idol because between brace of the ninth, tidebinder, infidel, and the forsaken tide and idol are the most interchangeable in builds but I am aware they function a little differently (said that in the post ;))

I also can agree partially with what you mean by 2 and 4 kinda being the same but regardless I still feel warrior weapons in general should support tanking a bit more than they do unless there are spell changes that give a huge tank buff for the class. Personally I have in mind stuns for bash and a 5 seconds of hp Regen for war cry as the buffs I'd like to see and I kinda had those in mind when talking specifically about these issues.

 

The main reason I'd oppose the hpr warscream thing is because hpr is already a game mechanic and it would favor certain playstyles for warrior too much imo

And yeah, there is really no good comparison for Idol. Idol is a really standard water spear while the legendary water spears are all quite varied.

 

I mean like minecraft health Regen not health Regen relative to your build's hp if that makes sense
But yeah at least warrior has alot of water options :3
virgo idol is hot

 

Spoiler: Mythic Feedback

Inferno needs some help from item support in t/f/a and t/w/f for spell as well as a few more good fire melee items for e/f/a. Maybe give it more hp as well

Nirvana is fine as is. Very epic!

Weathered is fine as is!

Cata feels a little on the to powerful side to me personally. It might be because of that -1 spell cost on top of the insanely high damage output.

Grimtrap as a weapon feels fine to me. However it’s playstyle is just not meta for assassin right now. I would not really say any changes are needed for the weapon until we get more used to all the earth spell and melee items in the game currently.

Nulli could use a little more damage just so it out damages sawtooth because right now even tho it is insanely tanky it is still generally not worth the price

Archangel is fine .


Warp is fine as is

Fatal is fine as is. Even though it hits insanely hard the rng balances it out nicely.

Singularity I think struggles alot from being rainbow but as a weapon even though it is really powerful I still think it could use a little mana steal or regen to provide sustain as having reqs of 45 all around makes it very difficult to acquire adequate mana sustain in builds without giving up a ton of damage.

Monster honestly is quite good even though alot of people hate it I really think it is in a good spot right now and will get even better whenever we get more fire support.

Gaia seems to be in a good spot because earth has alot of variety right now in terms of playstyle and gaia can work well in nearly any earth playstyle. Can the -6 to -3% spell be removed though cause that small amount of damage being taken is just so weird lol.

Lament is just kinda meh right now. The weapon feels like it has no personality and the mana steal is just overlooked by most as its built for mana regen anyways. The water damage is nice and the -1st spell gives nice heals but at 130 intel heals are two mana anyways so if you get under 50% -1st the id becomes useless. Then on top of all that the damage is honestly trash. It barely out damages the strongest legendaries as opposed to other mythic wands which absolutely destroy legendaries in terms of damage. I get buffing damage is a “boring” way to change it so maybe it could use a bunch of +skill points. Like +dex, agility, defense, and intel with then a ton of -strength or something more interesting.

Pure is actually good endgame and at level 65 now yay!


Strati needs a buff, the damage is really bad now I get it was a bit overpowered before but now it’s just a gale’s force with walkspeed basically and desperately needs an increase in damage.

Spring also needs an increase in damage because being locked out of using dexterity really hurts its damage capabilities and caps the damage alot lower than it should be and makes it easily outdanaged by crafted bows.

Divzer is insanely epic right now. I feel like the bow could use a small nerf on the side of ls...but I don’t really think it is broken because it has all the -agility.

Grandmother is also in a good spot right now I don’t think any changes are needed.

Ignis needs a major id buff still. Just make it like 75% of the health you regen or something please. Other than that I think it’s fine.

Freedom in my opinion is fine as is. The mana regen and small amounts of utilities (hp, damages, walkspeed) and then that huge agility buff make this a very well designed rainbow weapon.

Az idk honestly


Collapse is no great. Stop calling it balanced for fuck sake it’s not. The fact is rng damage on warrior doesn’t really work well in game. Stacked with the inability to tank effectively it just overall doesn’t feel that great. I think the damage should be made more consistent and maybe buff the damage if there are no plans for more rainbow support in the foreseeable future.

Thrunda is fine as is. Glassy but has great damage and isn’t rng dependent.

Idol is fine as is. A little less glassy than thrunda but less damage as well. The charge cost is also really nice and makes it super unique.

Alka is really weird right now. The -skill points feel a bit out of place honestly but honestly with or without them I don’t think there would be too much of a difference with how the weapon is used. I do think that removing the -15 intel could be nice to allow for an epic earth spell option.

Guardian struggles from tank struggles and just doesn’t feel really great but doesn’t feel really bad either. I’d personally say the only changes it could use are a very small damage increase and/or a defense skill point increase.

Hero is quite epic as is and I do know alot of people think the major is underpowered but alot also think it’s overpowered. Personally I’m not sure but I think it really favors air tanks and that I like alot.

Apoc is fine as is works nicely for what it is meant for at level 81 and endgame.

Absolution has really nice heals now and good damage output. Overall even though it lacks access to courage I think it is still a really solid mythic relik...wish I could afford one in game…

Fantasia is really weird. I think if rainbow items get more mana support that the relik can be really powerful. However currently it just feels eh. The damage is really good and the -spell costs and +intel are awesome the -mana would work really well to balance this out if getting mana on rainbow builds wasn’t so freaking difficult...also the watched is so good for being tanky that rainbow shaman is already awesome without this relik which is nice. But regardless I think that like collapse this relik could use some changes if rainbow support in the nearish future is not planned.

Toxo...oh boy. The item is fine but it’s so freaking id dependent that it’s just bullshit. That’s all I got to say on it.

Sunstar is insane and probably the most powerful and coolest mythic relik in my opinion. Super versatile in spell, melee, and hybrid. The slow attack speed is amazing because you can tier stack but not become a glass cannon for super fast speed. I honestly think the +1000 raw melee (buff last patch) might be a bit to much but overall its great!

Hadal is fine as is. Honestly its very id dependant but it can hit really freaking hard when built right.

Aftershock feels a little op for being a level 77 mythic buuttt...we can let it slide ;)

Olympic needs a damage buff other than that it’s fine as a gimik movement item like strati

Revenant is great for what it is meant to do. Earth air builds are almost always amplified with them and they can bring alot more options for the playstyle to the table! Orange lily revenant also is amazing cuz that -4th hehe…

Warchief seems nice right now and I think it is in a good spot. It feels like warchief and virgo play super well off eachother cause virgo has that attack speed but no hp whereas warchief has 5k hp, 30 skillpoints, and more melee % and raw. Overall it’s good as is.

Stardew is kinda weird right now but I think it is fine because it works well in basically any thunder/water combo. The -mr while i’m still not a fan I think isn’t as big a problem I originally thought it would be and all around the item is just a really good thunder/water spell option.

Dawnbreak is amazing. I don’t know why people say it’s bad honestly I think those boots are insane. The raw melee and damages with life and mana steal at the cost of water/air defense and hpr. Overall I love this and am thinking of using them soon. The ways these can be used is super cool and the design itself feels unique and fun. 10/10 never change dawnbreak <3

OKAY FINE I LIKE SLAYER NOW FINE FINE FINE FINE FINE. They work nicely in alot of hybrid builds and allow shaman and mage (as well as other classes but mainly shaman and mage) to work really well without intel in spell builds. The +tier with the melee and walkspeed is also great and the +20 dex is just another bonus. Also the stealing is neat when abusing greed.

Boreal is epic stop hating y’all. Works super great in hpr tank builds and doesn’t need any changes.

Moontower...tf is a moontower. Like it’s just sp for the people willing to pay insane money for a pair of boots to go with their 129 intel warp and strati #classbuilds shitposts. I dunno I personally kinda hate them and find using them almost never optimal but maybe I’m just crazy.

Galleon is weird. Someone I know who will remain unnnamed advocated for more -tier on it so it can use the mana steal. I personally would like to see the -tier removed so you can use it in fast water/earth hybrid more effectively but regardless the boots themselves are quite nice but could just use a small buff to push them to really feel mythic because right now in alot of builds using things like sine, ex nihilo, gaea, sesmosoul, and whatever else. These boots rarely feel like the best option to me but rather feel like pre patch slayer, just alright but niche as an item.

Resurgence with 9mr idk what the hell you were thinking when doing this but I like it. Just please for the love of god give us some sort of high mana boots as a fabled and also another +2/4 mana regen tailoring item.

And lastly...crusades…#sendhelp for real these have almost no use in builds even with 30sp and over 8k hp. They really can work as a earth/fire hp slap but are almost never actually useful outside of that and within any fire/earth playstyle are just never optimal. In my opinion they need raw melee and raw hpr to be...like a mythic should be and actually have a place in the meta.

...rainbow mythic boots when?

Spoiler: Wand rant

While i’m at this i’m also gonna rant a bunch on endgame wands. I know a week or two ago I went off about how warrior needs alot more item support and I think this is similar for mage. However the difference is while warrior has alot of class problems and items not being built for the class mage wands just are generally not balanced as well as daggers, reliks, and bows across the board. Mage itself is a strong class and so that isn’t really an issue here it’s just that so many wands of all tiers suck. Right now mage players (to my knowledge) tend to only use a small handful of wands, those being morrow, nepta, judas, the nothing, lunar, and peaceful rest, and then recently a few people are starting to realise manablast is good. That’s about it a ton of wands right now are just flat out bad and as a result basically never used.
To start with the infamously terrible phoenix wing. This wand needs serious help. For starters this wand really should just be purely fire damage or at least primarily fire damage so you can use high hp items with fire damage % and actually take advantage of being super tanky. I say this because right now most air damage items are low to medium hp and by the time you’re done making a damage build you are hardly the tank you should be because your item’s hp is so low to begin with. Not to mention the damage, even with that 4680 max hp, is utterly pitiful.


Event horizon is another wand that seems to fall to the “Hp cant make up for everything wrong with you” flaw. Even with 6500 max hp all the -defenses drop your effective hp so greatly it’s debatable that you are actually losing effective hp overall… not to mention the -water damage means you aren’t getting great heals with all the hp you got. And to top it off the damage while nice is lower in most builds than other really strong spell wands…


Bonder has mana regen and that’s very epic and I get it’s meant to be a semi defensive wand and not deal much damage. But honestly outside of using it with time rift I find this wand very weak. I think that it doesn’t need that much of a buff but I do think it is the weakest of all the orange wybel weapons for sure.

Peaceful rest and cascade are vicims to a lack of support for rainbow spell and fire spell but as weapons are great ;)


As for rares Honestly manablast is the only really good rare for endgame use. There are a couple others that are alright but honestly that is the only good rare wand which I find quite sad and something that I really think should change.

On a final note Return to Ether sucks right now please buff it to a fire/water/air bow like this <3
https://wynndata.tk/ci/566826392

I honestly don't know if anyone even takes the time to read these but these are just things I discover when messing with builds in game and on wynndata as well as when talking to friends. I look forward to whatever comes in the next item update cuz i'm getting kinda antsy over it.

 

collapse shouldn't really suffer from this issue at all.
it's a rainbow item, so after powders, it'll have rainbow damage obviously. so, even though all of its damage ranges are from [extremely low] to [extremely high], these damage rolls are calculated 5 times.

this can be seen with the nothing, having three damage ranges of 0-1.
so it'll have a total of 4 different damage options
0, 0, 0 - 0
1, 0, 0 - 1
1, 1, 0 - 2
1, 1, 1 - 3
ok, so it's a 25% chance for each, right?
wrong.

there are more possibilities due to these multiple damage rolls.
0, 1, 0 - 1
0, 0, 1 - 1
1, 0, 1 - 2
0, 1, 1 - 2

that gets us:
0, 0, 0 - 0
1, 0, 0 - 1
0, 1, 0 - 1
0, 0, 1 - 1
1, 1, 0 - 2
1, 0, 1 - 2
0, 1, 1 - 2
1, 1, 1 - 3
as you can see, there is 1 option for 0, 3 options for 1, 3 options for 2, and 1 option for 3 out of a total of 8 options.

so rather than having an equal chance for any damage, there's a 12.5% chance to do 0 damage, a 37.5% chance to do 1/3 max, a 37.5% chance to do 2/3 max, and a 12.5% chance to do max damage.

this logic can be carried over to collapse. because it has five different damage rolls, it has a higher chance in reality to do a damage amount much closer to average.

 

Tbh King of Hearts is pretty great for a cleric build

The problem is that like 90% of the game requires you to deal damage to get rewards

They need to give it a fuckton of water damage and/or a support or tank major ID. Like, if it had Guardian’s Major ID in tandem with heal and maybe a health buff it would be a legitimately insane support/tank hybrid item. But as is it’s just outclassed by King of Hearts for that type of builds and things like Peaceful Rest for fire damage builds.

________________________________

Also man it’s almost been two months without an update

 

design might be nice (albeit boring with the 0 drawbacks) but the baselines could get dragged to depths of hell, a utility/tank bow doesnt also need 18k bombs

 

I am aware it isn't a straight 50-50 as opposed to other weapons like a fully water powdered infidel. But the issue in my opinion is simply that the design works poorly with warrior because not getting a strong hit in hurts as warrior more than any other class. Regardless I like the math and am saving that for future collapse rants :)

The fact is I freaking forgot about king of hearts cuz I don't really even see it as an option endgame but just a dual wield that's sad.

I mean yeah...I agree it is kinda overpowered but I personally don't think it needs a nerf until rainbow just has more all around support and what not. Maybe a little reduced damage now but I dunno.

 

tmw people are annoyed that items aren't changing lol

 

https://wynndata.tk/s/r2ek6b
idk about that one chief

it's conversion

https://wynndata.tk/s/i47gab

cascade: the planned identity of rainbow is something that can take from other trielemental archetypes. lacking pure rainbow items isn't a big issue because it can do this quite easily

 

Because there’s nothing else to do at this point and item updates usually mean at least a few new items, which we need for the fabled department badly

I can’t even test my new greed cleric shaman because I can’t find EO groups

 

I never said cascade itself was bad but rainbow isn't amazing I am fully aware it hits that hard. I've not been able to push event horizon past about 19k so intresting but judas still hits a bit harder...That desperado build seems neat tho I myself didn't have nearly as much success when trying to build it :P

 

rainbow on any character but mage is bad (freedom is exception)

 

https://wynndata.tk/s/w3j9g4 Sure it doesn't hit as hard as Judas or Cascade but the build is all around well balanced.

 

i dont think rainbow is particularly lacking
sawtooth and nulli get nice damage along rainbow's inherent tank factor (though i dont nulli is mythic-worthy due to tank being an unrewarded playstyle)

mage has cascade and sing, both really strong weapons as already mentioned

collapse is even in your own title. nonmythic rainbow spears are lacking, yes

archer has rainbow covered the best. fog of creation gets a bit under average damage, but mind it's rainbow. zero is also a viable option if you like wacky damage nunbers.
freedom is busted, nerf the damage already thanks



i dont know why you find rainbow so bad now. it just often falls behind in damage in comparison to high-damage elements, but theres not much to be done about that.

all rainbow has FA. just having skill points in both makes you considerably tanky. also giving it high damage would just make it a broken overshadow over all builds (like what it used to be or what freedom now is)

 

I might add the tankyness is sometimes true. Like 45 or 55 in all makes you really tanky but 20 or 30 in all doesn't really. But getting 45 or 55 unless you are using cascade or freedom results in you generally not having to much mana And other forms of sustainably. Outside of freedom, cascade, singularity (which I still think might be a little underwhelming pls don't hurt me), and the watched/hardlight rainbow weapons are just kind meh. I like ones like freedom, Fantasia, nulli which are all ready unique but the former in my opinion is the only one that really does a really good job at being unique while still being really good. I think that the 1.19 update also indirectly nerfed rainbow a bit because of all the -sp on Hive master armors. Like being able to use boreal crown, anima, or edin blessed on rainbow would be really freaking amazing.

 

Spoiler: imagine writing mythic feedback but forgetting to post it

hey might as well tune in to give some mythic feedback too

cata basically still gets the same spins as it used to, which is maybe a bit strong when combined with the -1 1st cost but then again, it’s also supposed to be balanced for those who got poor rolls on their cata so i guess it balances out


weathered: it’s really fucking strong rn, but that’s mostly because of it abusing a literally broken major id


archangel: if roving assassin isn’t going to get fixed why not remove it from weathered and put it on archangel to give it some use in endgame that isn’t fully covered by slider or air-powdered hive dagger


divzer: seems a bit too strong, massive damage with the full benefits of stupidly high mana/life steal with no real downsides (no agility doesn’t count when defense is probably the better defensive element anyway, and also allows anima)


spring: it’s not bad, but it’s just kind of mediocre doing what it does (being pretty similar to orange lily in terms of playstyle/design) and overall still feels like something’s up with it


strati: gale’s force moment- while it really shouldn’t have massive damage we can all agree it’s allowed to have bigger damage than it currently does


az: it’s just kind of a sad bow, getting outdamaged my cluster and the gimmick it has is done better by basically any build with nighthawk (and possibly one.. or two.. draoi fairs)


freedom: the i shit in your existence bow. the pikotaro everyone must die bow. the very existance of this bow brings me to weeping tears. this offspring of a thousand demons has no excuse or reason for its being yet it is here amoung us now. the very nature of rainbow is to combine all elements into one, but where it sometimes leads to art this is like mixing three colours and getting a brown you would only see in a toilet. it’s genuinely the worst kind of rainbow weapon design: instead of a specific focus with options for other styles, it can just do anything and everything it damn pleases without a care. unkillable tank? no problem. damage output only second to divzer and not doing under for gma? not an issue. making pandemonium good? easy. want to play using only the braincells in your spine? why not. hey why don’t we also combine all of that in one singular weapon because it’ll be fun, it’ll be nice, it’ll be busted as all hell and it should die die die die (freedom should really get higher reqs, and probably a significant damage nerf)


sunstar: feels like its damage is quite on the high side- i get that shaman is the glassy class and this is the thunder mythic, but either it’s designed really well or it’s kind of really strong


olympic: needs two things: a bit better damage (or better regen air spell options, all the same) and lightweight major id because any jump height above 8 (i believe) makes you take fall damage dampens the coolness of this relik to red hot


aftershock: i know super fast shaman melee is kinda buggy but looking at the numbers on wynndata, are you sure this doesn’t have a bit too much damage for a prime etf user with above alka/gaia/basically any other melee weapon damage

alkatraz: stuck to the etf build because of the skill points i have yet to understand their function of other than making alka fairly underwhelming compared to how it used to be (which really was just fine)


guardian: now this probably has to do with me not having played this in-game but the numbers are saying this is really weak base damage relying on endurance stack to actually get damage and the numbers don’t lie (hpr is good but since i got a gma i have learned exactly how much difference it makes) (the answer is not that much when you’re fighting, even if that might be because gma actually kills bosses) (ok guardian isn’t that bad but you get my point, give it some love please)


galleon: feels pretty underpowered right now, not the weakest of the mythic boots but not far off. poison is nice, earth and mainly water damage is really nice, but it can’t really do its job well with basically being pushed towards etw (even if it’s actually really good for that, etw isn’t exactly what i’d call a useful archetype). the poison on it used to be impressive but necrosis, coal duster and heavy melee in general doesn’t do it any good. the only other use i can see for it would be hybrid ewf (regen spell would always use gaea-hewn), but even then it’s really underwhelming and probably switched in for something else. the mana steal is really good, but when other items get a bit less mana steal with basically no real drawbacks, galleon has a ton of negative thunder defense you really can’t get around countering.


crusade sabatons: it’s actually quite good after spending some time looking at what it’s capable of, but that’s still just supplying lots of skill points for quads or hard-to-meet reqs or giving lots of health for heal/totem/greed. i really wish it had something else to make it stand out, even if that was just a hpr% buff as an opposite to resurgence, some melee/fire/earth damage, or maybe even a major id or something.


revenant: still has too many ids syndrome, probably better to not touch it in case it spreads


stardew: has a nice feel on other classes, but it’s probably too powerful on mage, super high raw spell and high water damage- do you need to make fun of lament that badly?


resurgence: if i wasn’t so busy disliking freedom i’d probably have more words for this, but it still should choose two between the hpr, mana and sp- all of them at the same time, with the values they have right now, are just really powerful and even with the high defense requirement (or should i say especially with the defense requirement), any spell build with high int or def req uses this super well, and any other with medium reqs does too. the mana regen leaves more than enough room to boost the damage way up, and the intelligence allows it to happen without issue. i’d take away the int since it isn’t rolled, but just a nerf to mana or a big nerf to hpr would be nice too. negative sp for other elements could also be cute.


boreal:

#class_builds: lol it sucks

war build(?) people: lol it’s actually really good

health regen only works if you have the tankiness to consistently survive for 10 seconds and get it to proc, and this probably falls in the same category as things like moontower that aren’t that good on their own but become really good when another mythic gets involved. thing is, can you really consider double mythic when balancing? sure, you need to keep it in mind, but boreal has no business on melee builds, and is stuck to a wfa build with pretty challeging reqs, just to give nice health, nice mana regen and incredible hpr. tank isn’t bad, boreal isn’t bad, but context is important and i don’t really see boreal being very useful outside of special cases like ignis and guardian, and crusade sabatons and resurgence do its job (or what seems to be its job) better, with better synergy with other items. boreal could imo use some lower reqs, higher health, and maybe it could borrow some sp from resurgence. (i know i didn’t mention walk speed at all, but that’s because there isn’t much room to build around walk speed outside of warp which just furthers proves my point)


so when can we expect neutral mythic boots

I’ve complained about it before, but here’s a proper post about it.

Water has an (intended by design) abundance of mana options, but they make especially some water weapons less powerful than they should be. The biggest examples of this are Lament, Spring, Bonder, Lunar Spine, and most weapons with higher than base 2 mana, or spell costs for that matter. Most of those are fine, some even excellent, but they’re held back in terms of damage even though they have the base damage to rival other weapons similar to them. It’s when making water builds, you tend to already have enough mana for anything you’d want, and the mana on the weapon itself doesn’t matter too much anymore, since you’ll be able to spellcycle anyway. This is because the best (or optimal) damage options for water often either come with mana, or are even the mana option for that slot.

First off, accessories are in my opinion fine as they are right now, but that does mean you nearly always have at least 4 mana regen from just accessories: MPC and DHydro Necklace are a given, and others like DHydro Ring, DHydro Bracelet and Atlas are easy examples of even more incredible mana on these slots.

So, when using something with high mana on the weapon, you’d barely need any mana from the armor. Lament for example, could already have more mana than it realistically will empty. Thus, only damage is needed from the armor; but this is where my issue begins. Let’s just go over all the water options for each slot (with some low level wack items excluded for sake of the argument):

Helmet:
ornate shadow cowl: 20% / 200 spell, no mana
boreal-patterned crown: 20% / 425 spell, 25% t/w/a, 1 mr
pisces: 20% spell, 16% e/w, 3 mr
aquamarine: 195 spell, 3 mr
sizzling shawl: 30% / 260 spell, 26% w/f, no mana
aphotic: 65% spell, no mana
albacore: 13% / 104 spell, 10% w, no mana
neuron: 20% spell, 13%t 10%w, 1 mr
nighthawk: 390 spell, -1 1st cost, no mana
cumulonimbus: 40% spell, 13% t/w/a, no mana
caesura: 22% spell, 26% w, -2 mr
whitecap crown: 320 spell, 20% w, no mana
polyphemus: 234 / 26% spell, 3 ms
ski mask: 15% w/a, 2 mr
myelin: 156 / 13% spell, 10% t, 1 ms
mistral: 9% spell, 12% a, 1 mr
info visor: 75 / 5%, no mana
anamnesis: 52% w, 5 mr
sequencer: 78 / 20% spell, no mana
logistics: 13% spell, 12% t, no mana
fenmask: 13% spell, 9% e/w, 1 mr

These are actually quite well-balanced, as when you leave out the obviously outclassed helmets most of them have a specific niche: BPC, Ornate, Pisces, Aquamarine, Sizzling Shawl, Aphotic, Nighthawk, Cumulonimbus, Whitecap Crown, Polyphemus and Anamnesis all having their own good uses between any combination of raw spell, spell %, water damage, skill points and mana. Helmet slot is a very nice example of how it’s done right.


Chestplates:
ornate shadow garb: 200 / 20% spell, no mana
medeis: 20% spell, 20% t/w/f, no mana
anima-infused cuirass: 15% t/w/f, -1 1,2,3,4th spell cost, no mana
petrichor: 16% spell, 13% w, no mana
leviathan: 17% w, no mana
time rift: 78% spell, -2 mr -3 ms, sorcery
starglass: 10% spell, 20% w, no mana
stillwater blue: 25% w, 4 mr
vacuum: 260 spell, 20% e/w, 3 mr
fishscale: 13% spell, 20% w/f, no mana
soul signal: 299 spell, no mana
azurite: 35% spell, no mana
ornamental plate: 90 / 12% spell, 2 mr
umbral mail: 16% spell, 13% t, 3 ms
gale’s freedom: 20% spell, no mana
charybdis: 8% spell, 16% e/w, 1 mr
sunshower: 8% w, no mana
This is where the water dmg options are real shaky. Although in my example we didn’t need anymore mana, it’s still important to be mindful that these all need to compete with Aquarius’ monstrous mana. Raw spell usually wants to go to Vacuum (Soul Signal is really disappointing, and you’re better off with even Ornate), which comes with base 2 mana. Spell % usually skips Time Rift because of inconsistency, but Azurite or Medeis are fine options too. Water damage is funnily enough also best with Vacuum or Medeis.


Leggings:
ornate shadow cover: 200 / 20% spell, no mana
eden-blessed guards: 5% w, 4 mr
chaos-woven greaves: 50% spell, 30% e/t/w, 3 ms
abyss-imbued leggings: 350 spell, 20% e/w/a, 4 ms
crestfallen: 260 / 13%, 1 ms
seipodon: 7% spell, 9% w, 3 mr
ophiuchus: 20% spell, 20% w/f, 3 mr
turquoise: 13% spell, no mana
trench scourer: 25% t/w, 4 ms
efteling: 18% spell, 14% w/a, 3 ms
dark channeler: 251 / 9% spell, 21% t/w, 1 mr 1 ms
elder oak roots: 15% spell, 20% e/w, 2 mr
rapids: 30% spell, 14% w, 1 mr
siliquartz blend: 125 / 20% spell, no mana
galvanization: 16% t/w, 1 mr 1 ms
ehoole drakeskin: 120 / 13% spell, 2 mr
shell of genbu: 30% spell, 13% w/f, no mana
xyloid: 10% w, 1 mr
water sanctuary: 85% w, no mana
I think my point becomes pretty obvious. Almost any ‘best’ options has mana. Raw spell has both Abyss-Imbued and Dark Channeler to work through, both with lots of mana, while spell % has Elder Oak Roots with 2 mr, Ophiuchus with 3 mr, or Rapids with 1 mr. The only good water leggings that doesn’t give mana, is Water Sancuary, which is pretty hard to use.


Boots:
ornate shadow cloud: 200 / 20%, no mana
gaea-hewn boots: 15% spell, 10% e/w/f, 3 mr
capricorn: 20% spell, 3 mr 1 ms
ex nihilo: 33% spell, no mana
sapphire: 247 spell, 3 ms
undefined: 156 spell, no mana
sine: 15% spell, 15% t/w, 3 ms
seismosoul: 16% spell, 7% w, no mana
memento: 195 / 20% spell, 3 mr
scaldsteppers: 20% spell, 1 ms
low world greaves: 18% spell, 12% w
wavedash: 10% spell, 10% w, 1 mr
condensation: 39% spell, no mana
steamjets walkers: 31% spell, 31%a, 27%t/w, no mana
corkian jet boots: 8% t/w/a, no mana
enduzskam: 9% spell, 21%t 16%w, 1 mr
centennial: 13% w/f, 1 mr

Boots are also pretty bad with this, Memento is stupid good as always, while the technically highest raw spell with Sappphire also has 3 ms. spell % doesn’t have a lot to choose, but both Condensation and Ex Nihilo are nice. Sine as well, with an extra ton of sp and 30% total for water weapons. Gaea-Hewn and Capricorn are also worth mentioning because they either give high health and hpr or sp along with 3 mana with very nice damage.


So, now that we have this list, let’s go over how different archetypes would build certain focuses, with only damages beng important (seeing as we did assume we didn’t need any extra mana):

ETW raw: nighthawk vacuum dark channeler memento/sapphire: 7 mr 1 ms / 4 mr 4 ms
ETW %: polyphemus azurite chaos-woven sine: 9 ms
EWF raw: nighthawk vacuum crestfallen memento/sapphire: 7 mr 1 ms / 4 mr 4 ms
EWF %: aphotic azurite ophiuchus gaea-hewn: 6 mr
EWA raw: nighthawk vacuum abyss-imbued sapphire: 3 mr 7 ms
EWA %: aphotic azurite abyss-imbued/elder oak roots ex nihilo: 4 ms / 2 mr
TWF raw: sizzling shawl ornate dark channeler memento: 4 mr
TWF %: sizzling shawl medeis rapids condensation: 1 mr
TWA raw: boreal-patterned ornate dark channeler memento: 5 mr
TWA %: cumulonimbus starglass rapids condensation: 1 mr
WFA raw: sizzling shawl ornate siliquartz blend memento: 3 mr
WFA %: aphotic stillwater blue ophiuchus condensation: 7 mr

Which, on its own, already looks pretty awkward for really pushing the pure possible damage within an archetype. Keep in mind that some gear like Condensation and Rapids is normally not used at all or easily replacable for something with slightly less damage but with extra mana, high int high mana weapons barely have any advantage over high int high damage weapons, whilst being designed with lower damage / higher spammability in mind. Even if that deisgn is basically stopped from working properly by the current water / spell damage options.

My request would be maybe an item like Ceasura with negative mana but nuts damage (would actually have to be high though, unlike Ceasura), or possibly something playing around with the interaction inbetween high intelligence and positive spell cost %. Lastly, nerf TWA overall and you’d water should hopefully be a lot more interesting in terms of builds, and hopefully result in stuff like Lament, Spring and Lunar Spine ending up better than they are right now.


Secondly, fire spell needs some serious love. I know y;all are fully aware, but I’d like to just reiterate all the actual fire spell options to show where we could really use some new/changed armor:

Aphotic: Super high spell %, but can’t use thunder anymore. At all.
Sizzling Shawl: 30% spell, 260 raw spell, 26% water/fire spell. Really powerful, even if the thunder def should get countered.
Sparkweaver: 3 ms, and lots of skill points.
Medeis: 20% spell and 20% fire. Stuck to TWF and needing to be chosen over Anima, but otherwise strong and useful.
Anima-Infused Cuirass: 15% fire, with amazing spell costs. Nice, but low power.
Soulflare: 2 mr, 2 ms, some skill points, very useful but less so for spell fire.
Hetusol: One of few non-int req mana items. Amazing health regen, but lacks any kind of damage.
Smoldering Apron: 27% fire, 20% spell, just a general fire damage piece but since fire lacks spell support, it’s very useful.
Chef Hamsey’s Apron: Free 3 mana, and some really cool ele defs and sp to boot.
Eden-Blessed Guards: Nice mana and health regen, but pitiful damage (5%).
Ophiuchus: 3 mr, 20% spell and 20% water/fire. Very powerful but literally stuck to Gaea-Hewn.
Cinderchain: Really strong, 45% fire and 25% spell.
The Crossing: Ophiuchus is mostly better, but we’re desperate here.
Hephaestus-Forged Sabatons: Nice sustain, but doesn’t have a ton of damage (15%).
Gaea-Hewn Boots: 3 mr, 15% spell and 10% e/w/f, high health. Basically what you’d expect spell fire to look like.

While it looks pretty nice, you can only use one master hive and one fire hive item, which lowers the options to really just be:
Sizzling Shawl/Aphotic - Hamsey’s - Ophiuchus/Fire Sanc/Crossing - Gaea-Hewn
Sizzling Shawl – Medeis/Anima-Infused – Cinderchain – Memento

I’d like to see at least something of the following:
-non-master hive fire spell boots
-secondary less powerful fire spell helmet
-non-thunder fire spell chestplate
-cumu 2/medeis 3
-noble phantasm gettting water damage back, or are you afraid of its power

 

az is not meant for late game, it is super strong for its level and prob good till cluster. But giving it a good Major ID would boost the incentive for people to use it, such as how pure can be stacked with raw spell damage to make up for the late game damage, making it a great burst weapon.

 

I'd like to note weathered would not be insanely op if it's major wasn't bugged as it is currently is. The using no mana during vanish would be really balanced for a mythic and very epic if it didn't make spells free :P

Personally I think freedom is a lil overrated but ya know it's still quite good. Divzer on the other hand I agree is a bit strong because it like gives all the sustainability you would ever need in a single weapon while still outdamaging every bow in the game.

Aftershock honestly is a bit too powerful given it isn't a level 100 mythic however I honestly don't mind simply because you can't really abuse the insanely good tier stacking nature of the item until level 100 anyways.

Guardian tho. honestly I agree it's not in a great spot right now. Even with up to 7800hp and god knows how much hpr it really doesn't do it's job as well as it should. You can tank extremely well but generally you are better off using tank armors and a damage weapon rather than a tank weapon and damage armors for warrior because the former just gives you more damage. I think though alot of the problem is due to tank builds not being absolutely amazing right now (i miss you pre corkus warrior :() as opposed to the weapon itself. The only change id make to it personally is give it a bit more mana or something interesting.

I agree with you on galleon 100% outside of e/w/a spring and e/w/a or e/w/t idol I have not found much use for it. Personally I'd give it a small spell damage id and remove the -1 tier.

Give crusade raw hpr, fire, and earth damage pls thanks ;)

Honestly tho stardew on mage isn't that insane as while it is generally the most powerful option for max damage in any spell build the boots themselves don't feel utterly insane. I mean the only nerf I could see that would make sense is -fire and -earth damage making them more t/w/a but honestly I don't think that's needed.

Give resurgence -dex imo cuz that way its harder to counter the damage debuffs as e/w/f and w/f/a are much more defensive and lower damage. I like the mana because now the item team has no excuse to nerf 10/4 crafted boots.

Boreal needs like all four armors to be hp forcused or two or three tank armors and then a hpr weapon. Overall its so damn good and I really don't think it needs much of a buff but maybe lowering reqs to 65 from 75 would be nice to allow you to build it outside of just fire and air cuz like if you are using hero or guardian with it hitting 68 intel right now is really really hard.

neutral mythic boots intrest me...can we get rainbow ones also.


with the water stuff I agree when it comes to non helmet slots we lack choice. water leggings suck, like alot. Also why is it eden blessed are the only leggings with more than 4 mana :(
I think somthing worth noting though is that water builds in general feel like they have alot of choice but are just poorly balanced. Like if we could use insanely high damage stuff with -mr like timerift we could have some very nice building options available to us right off the bat. I also feel like builds with high mr and lots of -ms should be experimented with as we currently really only have high ms and -mr. Like if we had more weapons give -ms and +mr as well as armors (and maybe spring...) we could have some interesting spell spam options that die if they try to use curse carelessly. I also would like to see transcendence as well as more -spell costs put onto a few more weapons across classes for some more interesting water options.

as for fire honestly we need more than just what you had said but yes pls save spell fire. Heph should get a but more -3rd spell imo but the trouble is that most mana steal items that aren't intel are thunder not fire which makes building ms a kinda pain. You are forced to build t/w/f with ms and a bit of mr and e/w/f mr but both struggle to get good damage because if you look at more ms/mr items of those types they give damage FOR THE OTHER TWO ELEMENTS AND SAY F*CK YOU FIRE DAMAGE LOLLLZZZZ. and t/f/a...must we even talk about it. thunder fire air is carried by slayer...I tend to hope that fire spell all around can start utilizing -spell costs a bit more but right now we just need damage. Personally what i'd like to see is as follows. All the stuff you mentioned, damage on sparkweaver and soulflare, one or two mana regen fire items that require no intel and give mana regen with fire or spell damage, some uniques that are actually useful for this, some accessories that give either fire damage/spell other than fireball as well as accessories that don't require dex with some ms and accessories that give some -spell % costs that don't require intel, at least one fabled that works for fire spell (nighthawk already kinda does with inferno, fire archer, and mage), I would really really love a fire/earth spell leggings that give mr, damage, and sp with just those (like capri but just leggings). After all is said and done probably some fire weapons will need a bit of a buff as well.

but yeah for the most part I agree with you :)

 

Hm, maybe I should go write up thoughts on every single mythic...