Info Item Team Thread - Item/ingredient/major Id Changes, Updates & More (updated 28/03/2020)

Just saying... Collapse's minimum damage is quite low, but you also can't ignore its maximum damage. This much of a damage range would be a downside if you were required to hit the maximums for it to be viable, but in this case, the averages beat out basically any other spear in the game for base damage. Much like fatal, a massive damage range has a huge upside and downside because while you could hit near 0 damage and have any given attack be worthless, you could also hit near maximum and it would deal twice, if not more (with damage boosts taken into account) damage than anything else could.

The damage range is not a downside. If you prefer consistency, then that's different. In terms of numbers and it's mathematical output, collapse is very much fine and quite good. Collapse has a good amount of versatility in all of hybrid, melee and spell builds with the damage and IDs to back it up.

There is quite literally no raw damage being stacked here... MSD has a bit of raw damages, but the majority of this build's damage comes from DHydro, Libra, Intensity and especially Rainbow Sanctuary all of which are percentage based, playing off the massive base damage Collapse features. Stardust is basically there only for the skill points and mana (both of which are unnecessary, I might add, since Collapse only has 40x5 requirements and more mana can be found elsewhere). Ex Nihilo features RM but it's not nearly as impactful as the percentages are due to slow speed.

Collapse has the highest Base Damage : Attack Speed of any spear in the game due to it being "rainbow" and "hyper-offensive". Those are bonuses we attribute to weapons to determine the base damage of a weapon. It even beats Braker, with its gimmick and downside riddled design.

 

Any news of new fableds? We kind of need some more

 

While I absolutely agree that collapse CAN be very powerful I believe there are two issues with it in general.

While yes it gives 5 mana steal it still can become difficult to sustain mana with a steady flow of steal and regen on rainbow. While perhaps i'm under estimating this (maybe cause i'm someone who likes mana regen) maybe its not as much of an issue.
However the spear itself does struggle massively from warrior's flaws. Warrior lacks spell utility and a movement spell/defense spell to instantly protect it like a trump card. Mage has heal and teleport, assassin has vanish (aka fly lol) and archer has escape and arrow shield. Warrior doesn't have anything like this and because of that missing a spell is a very serious problem if you are left vulnerable. hitting a 1k uppercut and then hitting a 40k uppercut isn't worth the risk when you can just use idol thrunda or even an agility stacked hero glass cannon and do more damage on average. Infidel is another example of this as while it hits as hard as tidebinder and can sometimes touch 35k uppers people generally don't use it endgame because warrior doesn't have the same flexibility from defense spells as other classes. Also the -defenses just amplify this problem. I would understand if collapse is left unchanged until some sort of warrior buffs but in it's current state I stand by it being weaker than it should be.

 

I think it's a rainbow problem more than a collapse problem, and rainbow rework will come eventually... right?

 

collapse really is a dogshit item, for having 40 req in all and a ton of negative defenses the 5/4 ms and 978.25 avg damage with 2 water powders and 1 thunder is absolutely not worth and nowhere near the highest base damage spear. alka is very close (962.5‬) much more consistent and easier to scale damage because it's not rainbow. Thrunda with powders has 1,214.4‬ base damage which is almost 25% more damage than collapse with no defense negatives, it's much more consistent, has a lot lower requirement, and even has minus spell cost to uppercut. I don't think I need to say much more but I wanted to add that hero has a base of 1,072.5 and idol is at 850 with some raw sd, both of which can probably get more dps/damage than collapse as well. Very underwhelming for a "hyper offense" item.

 

I'm not sure your calculations are quite right. I got about 1139 for Thrunda with thunder powders, and 1140 for Collapse with earth powders.

 

how exactly? I used these multipliers https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/335976189955014667/652367394475606017/unknown.png

 

Those multipliers are wrong. The true multipliers are 0.51, 0.83, 1.5, 2.05, 2.5, 3.1, and 4.3

I'm kind of surprised that this old misinformation is still around, a few years after motoki's thread.

 

alright thanks for letting me know, even still tho thrunda has more upsides and the same damage.

 

Thrunda doesnt have big mana steal

 

Give Collapse the Madness Major ID, and RNG weapon deserves RNG major ID

 

Doubt Salted would allow it; pandemonium is his baby

 

...what?

 

I was joking

 

I wouldn't definitively say that Thrunda has more upsides, but I get what you mean.

 

Updated!

 

Oh yes Anya's Penumbra 15 Intel

 

now Anya's is really good if you're just a bit short on sp and need to slap an intel item

 

Hmm I think I see a slowly being rehashed elemental revamp… Regardless the majority of the changes here I like. The mythic changes to both boots and reliks mostly feel fitting to the items. *cough* buff olympic *cough* I do have two questions seeing these. The first is what is the end goal for the boots slayer? Currently they still just feel subpar and like an item with no identity. Not really sure what the point of the boots are as they just feel very weird to build around. I don’t really have anything to suggest on changing it other than just new ids and perhaps a flat out rework. My other question is with resurgence, these boots actually feel like solid mythic boots now that would fit very well in fire/water builds that are spell spam or tank. However are there any plans to give us high mana boots that are not locked behind the mythic wall as currently resurgence and moontower are the only mythic boots that don’t really have any good/direct non mythic counterparts. I get they are mythic and im of course not saying give us 9/4 mana legendary boots but rather can we get another high mana option for the boots slot other than riverflow?


Nextly is the one item you overnerfed that being anima. I understand that hive items have 4 ids and then damages/defenses but anima is now at a point that it feels as though there is no reason for me to use it. I WANT TO SAY BEFORE that pre nerf it was to strong and needed a nerf however this nerf was too much. Having -1 on every spell seems op but the thing is when building w/f/t you usually are going to spell spam and high damage. The - spell costs are nice but I personally see little reason to use it when I can use Medeis for more damage, Aquarius for more spell sustainability, Stillwater for spell sustainability with lower intel requirement, and soulflare if i’m using thunder damage. Anima having 4/4 and -1 in 1st 3rd and 4th was so powerful because it offered more mana than almost every chestplate AND -spell costs. In my opinion anima should not have been given a -1 2nd spell and just have it’s mana reduced from 4/4 to 2/4 to make it a very strong and possibly best option for spell spam but not the best by an ungodly broken margin.


My next question is regarding spell shaman. Overdrive and Island chain are clearly getting really hard nerfs but being lower level whatever ig? Cryo was much stronger than the other reliks for spell before so to be balanced with them this change makes sense...and royal hydrangea still feels underpowered, like seriously it just does about 200 more auras but now heals a little more and has more skill points. Regardless it seems as though shaman’s aura spell could use a damage increase all around as it feels that the spell is balanced so that (tell me if you follow here) leaving the totem is meant to hurt you rather than entering the totem is meant to help you, in essence meaning that like everything is balanced around in totem damage and if you aren’t in it your damage kinda sucks.


The rare and unique items seem quite nice and I like that alot. Earth/water support also seems to be increasing so that's nice as well. Do you currently have plans to release more items for f/t/a e/w/a and t/w/a all of which feel as though they lack support right now? Regardless, lots of cool changes and i'm glad we are seeing uniques become viable.

 

pisces: w/e, neat i guess
conflag: thx we did kinda need that
anima: uhh yea actually, surprisngly
libra/rainbow sanc: sure, this is nice
orange lily: about what i was expecting, maybe tune it down to 6-8 but aight
ttide: uh ok
cryoseism: don't like that one sorry
royal hydrangaea: until you flip the elemental and spell damage i will not like it
overdrive: knew this was coming
island chain: knew this was coming
necklace of 1k storms: kinda epic now
wtf anya's penumbra: actually useful now outside of very strange quads
LEVIATIER SHOULD'VE BEEN ON AZURITE BUT EPIC EW TIER GAMING
charybdis: oh so this is leviathan now i see
marsh waders: nice, catch me maybe using this
SEISMOTIER SEISMOTIER AAAAAAA WE DID IT
sempiternel: pretty cute
arkhalis: didn't ya'll accidentally put this one through already? it's maybe overkill but was needed
big arm: XAVIER R U OK
salticidae: JUSTICE HAS BEEN SERVED
aquamarine: yo aquamarine was already good now it's great
polyphemus: neat vacuum: vacuum buff! cool!
resolve: salpinx just acquired -100% 3rd spell, gaming silent ballet: had to happen. please get my suggestion in game. thx. anvil crawler: might now get on level of limbo/bygones/pyroclast