Weekly Community Discussion (27/12/2019) - Shaman Mythics

You should be able to hit a mob with all three rays from about 5 blocks away. I tried this while we were testing Shaman's range, due to the "only one basic attack can exist for Shaman at a time" thing making certain attack speeds have a shorter effective range. Super Fast's range is short enough to consistently hit mobs, so you absolutely can make that range good. The build you provided has oodles of walk speed so you can easily dance around mobs while hitting them with all three rays for the full DPS(note it hits 30k or so while you're in your totem), and honestly?

"This thing is overwhelmingly and brokenly strong, so this other thing, despite also being ridiculously strong, looks bad and needs a buff."

Not a good reason.

 

Huh... I was playing The End shaman on hero beta and I pretty much need to hug the mob for 3 rays to land. provided I haven't gotten a good roll on The End on the main servers I can't really say much. when testing on dummies on hero beta I swear any distance more than 4 blocks means you only land 2 rays. well I guess with 5 blocks it's not that much of a problem to dodge ranged mobs/skills. I generally try to compare all these to Eye boss solo so you only have half the side to dodge boss arrow storms (which if you are going against how the boss is trying to approach you you will pretty much eat ALL of the arrows).

I'll remove the buff request as new knowledge for me is discovered

 

God i love hadal.

In all seriousness tho, hadal is in my opinion the best designed, most well balanced and fun mythic that has even been released, period. The 150 int restriction is a neat way to restrict it's usage, and the +spell cost is nothing to laugh at (It ranges anywhere from 3 base aura cost to 6 base aura cost), but in return you get big boy damage. People might rant about oh hadal only good with moontower, but the build i have been using doesn't use one, and still functions well and does more damage then a moontower build.

Hadal is also a skill-test-ish weapon in 2 ways. 1) is in build making, as a 150 int req really doesn't make it easy to make a good build around and 2) is in its usage. 3-6 base aura cost is nothing to laugh at, you can run out of mana VERY easily, which makes spell cycling a must, and in the heat of battle, with a super slow weapon, that can be quite tricky. If you have mastered this however, you can use hadal to its fullest potential.

With all these ups and downs, it really makes for a super interesting balanced weapon, and a really fun one at that.












Oh yeah and the other mythics are fine i guess, except toxo, screw that mythic.

 

I am not sure why people are confused about 40-50k dps from Aftershock. Even Silent Night gets 30k pretty easily with Virgo, and it's not even that much of a damage focused item (the build I made had a bunch of lifesteal too, and note the -3 aura cost).

 

The main thing about this is probably how much health Aftershock gives. With silent night you are only looking at 12k hp with ornate helm and rune of safe passage. You lose quite alot of skill points (rip unspeakable) so that's less agi to survive.

 

Agreed. Afterall it's only 40-50k dps. This shit can go even higher thanks to powder specials. That is certainly nothing special, not too strong, perfectly balanced, doesn't make other melee builds obsolete, we can all go home.

 

I just realised that all the non-spell reliks can reach 20k+ dps if 3 ray lands easily without totem while spell reliks reach about 14k no totem max.
maybe a buff to aura is needed for spell reliks.
or just buff spell relik's damage.

 

Yeah, I talked in the beta about how I thought spell shaman was a bit weak, and hold to that. I believe at the time I recommended a boost to Uproot's damage multiplier to 150% and Aura to 250% (don't remember exactly).

Aftershock's health bonus is a fair point, it's rather strong in tierstack for that amount of health. I still don't think it's as strong as people are making it out to be though.

________________________________

@Selvut283 can't find the post but regarding Sunstar, I was able to do 24-31k dps with no additional ls depending on how much Agi and walkspeed I took. Comparatively, Silent Night under similar circumstances (just under 800 ls iirc) managed about 22-29k dps.

 

Hadal:
Let's talk. Specifically, about spell costs.

Consider the current situation, but without spell cost IDs. Trying to build Hadal in such an environment leads to an okay but kind of mediocre build. You can get maybe 14k auras and a bunch of Mana Regen, but with 4 cost auras (3 cost if you have a god tier roll on 3rd percent) you're going to struggle to do much damage.

The current situation has spell cost IDs - with care, you can have good defensive capability, high Mana regen, and 2 or even 1 cost auras. The problem, I would argue, is not spell costs specifically, but the fact that spell costs so far have a strange distribution.

Try using Slayer on Hadal. You can reach 2 cost auras by doing so (and Hadal is a really bad use case for Slayer's spell cost anyway, I don't have a great example of a balanced spell cost armor to use here so I just stuck in Slayer), but using Hadal alongside Slayer's reqs is tough, to say the least.

So I think the problem is not with Had all, but with spell costs. If Dragon's Eye Bracelet had 80 Def req it wouldn't be nearly so easy to toss it on a build alongside high Int (ignoring the fact that it's rather strange for the single most powerful offensive accessory to be defensively-bound). Likewise with AIC, which gives a ton of spell cost benefits with minimal requirement penalties - the 40/40 non-Int reqs are why I don't think AIC should have spell costs (whereas Heph spell cost works fine because it's 40 in three non-Int stats plus an Int penalty).

TL;DR Hadal is fine, spells costs aren't well-distributed.

 

wtf procrastination

 

To me the discussion on which relik mythic is overall going to be the best one boils down to fantasia vs hadal.
All the other mythics have their own unique quirks and some form a great core in niches builds.
But the real race to me seems to be between the rainbow powerhouse and the water powerhouse.

Both seem to try to go for the same concept in their own way: ludicrous damage at a mana cost.
Personally i'm a bigger fan of fantasia, simply because it has no weaknesses, the skill requirements allow you some degree of freedom for your other items and rainbow in general has been given a lot of amazing toys in 1.19.
Hadals problem is the 150 intel req, people might equate that to simple "a lot" and put it on the same level as 120 req mythics.
It's not, 150 is an insane requirement to fill in And cripples you if you even dare try get creative outside the bubble of water items.
Equipment such as capricorn and other 60's skill req items compliment fanta amazingly, and more then make up for it's drawbacks. What you're left with is a shaman who's totem turns into a meat grinder to whatever is unfortunate enough to walk into it.

 

Absolution:
It seems to be consensus that this is the weakest mythic relik. I agree.

In spell, the base damage relative to class is comparable to Guardian. This has benefits of maxed heals (generally about the equivalent of 6k hpr, depending on build), and 4 Mana Regen. Which are nice benefits... but not enough to make up for the loss of a powder special. The main reason Guardian is used at all is because the big health Regen means you can take a bunch of damage and shrug it off, freeing you to use the powder special to make up some of the damage. With Absolution unable to stably crack 10k pretotem auras, and no Courage, it's not a very good spell weapon.

As for melee... ironically, what holds back fast rawstack and heavy melee on mythics is the same thing that makes it more in line with spell dps ranges across classes for nonmythics. I managed 13k dps, 200 defensive sp, and about 90% walkspeed. Which alongside the totem benefits isn't that terrible, but it's not much more than a nonmythic would get. Not to mention the lack of powder slots hits very hard here - fast raw, especially with the fastest natural speeds, relies pretty heavily on covering a bunch of elements to hit mob weaknesses for a sizable chunk of usual dps, so the lack of slots hurts a lot, for a Super Fast weapon especially. I don't think it's that great as a melee weapon.

Imo could use some extra base damage and a bit of raw melee. And please... just let it hit the Def cap... it feels so sad to only reach 140.

Not tierstackable or heavy melee viable (assuming you already knew what I meant, but figured I should explain it for others here)

 

Give it stealing and greed. Boom, good and usable support weapon that heals allies and drops healing emeralds within the totem radius.

 

It seems aftershock was designed to be used with virgo, the extra life balancing the weakness of virgo. But what if we do not use virgo ?
I tried something different : https://wynndata.tk/s/i1g8ms
In totem, we reach 63k dps when full earth powder, so it's not "only 40k-50k"
Plus, there is quake. Defenses are low, but perfectly acceptable for a archetype made to be glassy, and same thing for health.
Regardless the fact that you can use defs pots.
With 2 fires powders, it's 62k dps in totem. But there is courage, and I'll let you calculate the insane amount of dps we can reach with that.

I think the real problem is not the amount of damages (contrary to what I'm saying) It's more the fact that this mythic gets all advantages of pure melee build, but without the restrictions.

 

The thunder and absolution sure look like they need a buff to their damages .

 

wait I forgot I had a forums account lul

so my irrelevant opinions?

Toxoplasmosis

A lot of controversy on this one. I thought it was pretty bad until I remembered that Courage was a thing that exists, so meh. Pretty unique, and it's nice to see that Poison will finally exist at a decent level.

Sunstar

Guildmate uses it. Pretty powerful, great lifesteal, great defense penetration, fair downside. I like this one.

Hadal

Aight chief, y'all went crazy with this one and I like it. It's completely unique and easily one of the strongest weapons in the game, and that's quite impressive given that it's a Water weapon. A very good balancing in forcing the wielder to have 150 Intel and some Aura & Uproot cost increments, but this thing's damage output is ludicrous between its titanic base damage meaning it easily penetrates high Water resistance mobs, great mana recovery, having the most reliable and consistent armor powder ability in the game in Concentration, a choice between Curse for bosses or Courage for crowds and even the option to run Time Rift. Its high req usually means your base Defense and Agility usually won't be too too high unless wielding Moontower or some other wacky stuff but overall, I say Hadal is an amazing weapon the way it is, and you all did a great job with this one.

Absolution

As someone who's wielding a tank Shaman at present, I have to say I like this one, but it's outdone. While Absolution is obscenely tanky and has some nice mana, it has some issues in both the defensive and offensive departments (and yes I acknowledge that tank weapons aren't supposed to be excellent in the offensive department but chill for a sec). While its base damage is right in the middle of the pre-nerf, obscenely overpowered Arkhalis, and also shares the same Attack Speed tier, its lack of a powder special can leave much to be desired. While it can have some pretty decent offense with and without influence of its Totem, it will notably struggle on its own to break naturally bulky Fire mobs such as the Fire Hive Drones and Orange Cybel without raw spell or side weapon support. Meanwhile, Absolution is doing its job as the "ultimate tank Relik" a little bit too much, and what I mean by that is that its huge defensive prowess is unnecessary with the other outstanding tank Relik, The Watched. The Watched does about everything that Absolution seeks to do, but differentiates itself by being able to break through particularly tanky mobs, and even breaks through Qira with and without Courage usage. Shaman also doesn't need too much mana from my experience. Using The Watched with 3 Regen and 1 Steal, I have nearly infinite mana and am able to sit in front of all relevant endgame bosses (we don't talk about Mechorrupter) and take everything they throw at me. Overall, while I definitely like Absolution, it needs something else that directly gives it a place over The Watched as a mighty tank weapon, such as powder slots, or alternatively a major ID, considering how there are 0 Shaman weapons that possess one. (Which by the way, may I ask if Shaman will be receiving one soon?)

Olympic

y e s

Fantasia

It's above average. Not much to say on this one except I kinda wish the old Anamnesis was a thing.

Aftershock

Oddly enough this thing is good in the melee and spell departments. Extremely powerful melee, great hybrid, and good spell. Has some pretty great stats for a low level weapon. I like this one in particular as a weapon whose element corresponds with its class.


Overall, I'd say my favorite out of all of them has to be Olympic. I've mastered flying with Shaman since the update was released, and the ability to kickstart flight with Jump Boost, have 1 mana cost Totems and Hauls while not having to dedicate too much to achieve so, the ability to run Courage without sacrificing too much base damage, and a nice Walk Speed and Air damage boost, I believe this Relik is a phenomenal weapon offensively, defensively and passively, and its hype is well deserved. The only Mythic Relik I would adjust is Absolution, and I've already stated why.


aight now to hibernate and not return to forums for the next 8 months

or maybe I can be convinced to use forums for once in class builds who knows

 

Huh, that's a really nice idea. Dropping emeralds throughout the totem radius is neat... Shaman AoE heh

 

> what if we don't use Virgo
> uses a no health armor piece anyway

 

https://wynndata.tk/s/k2svoe
https://wynndata.tk/s/f7ltnd

I've never built heavy melee before but it looks viable (maybe lack of quake is going to be super sad?)

But the defense boost is nice

 

Want to know what is better than Heavy Melee,
Assassin Heavy Melee & Spell, Shaman Heavy Melee & Spell XD
I know it is not the best build, but the raw melee from Taurus alone is enough to add the option to melee to an otherwise anti melee build.
Still I think the heavy melee may need to be toned back a little bit more, but it is not that far off from what I feel would be balanced.