Weekly Community Discussion (4/10/2019) - Set Item Changes

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Hello everyone! Today we’re moving onto the second of our weekly discussions about particular topics relating to items, ingredients and gameplay. We want to emphasize this won’t be a one-sided conversation but rather a constructive discussion between the community and the item team. We’ll be sure to keep up with your guys’ posts and respond regularly. As mentioned on our thread here, we’ll be doing this weekly but if there is enough interest and conversation ongoing as the week draws to a close, we’ll roll it over to the next week. If not, this thread will be locked and we’ll move onto a new discussion.

For reference, the previous thread’s discussion was on Master Hive Items, and can be found here.

This Week’s Topic: Set Item Changes

Huh, another holdover from the element revamp. Who’da thunk it?

A long-time issue I had with sets is that...well, people really didn’t use them much, or if they did, they used them in bits and pieces(see: 7-Morph). They weren’t found to be particularly useful in most scenarios, and with the element revamp coming up I figured it would be the perfect time to buff up set items! Since I felt so passionately about it, I basically requested to do every set change on my own, save a few notable ones like Morph-Set.

Aaaand then element revamp was postponed. But I really didn’t want to leave the set changes behind. Since set items have basically just been doing their own thing in their own corner since their conception in Gavel, the changes were kept(with a few tweaks to keep the changes more relevant in the current “sandbox” item style). Some complaints were lobbied about a few sets during the revamp-talks, primarily Morph since it’s by far the most prevalent set, but I’d like to see what everyone thinks about all the sets, not just Morph.

Notably they’ve kept similar skill requirements as the element revamp, as one of the primary parts of sets I wanted to emphasize with these changes even before the revamp, was that the majority of the useful power should be put into the full set. I wanted to encourage people to wear all the set items, not just a portion of them! Do you think this is a good thing, or is this misguided? Anything and everything about sets I’d like to hear from you about.

Set changes are listed here!

Thanks for reading,​

The Item Team​

 

I suppose it's fair with the introduction of Twilight-Gilded Cloak, but man..
actual feedback soonTM

First off, what is this 'Ascenscion Set'? I don't see any sets with the described set bonuses, is this an accidental leak or just a wrong name?
Secondly, nice [REDACTED] on the Vexation Set, plus some nice other changes to make this probably worth using at-level. Same goes for the REDACTED on Slime and Bovine set (Knockback + ..Poison Immunity? Is that a cow thing?)
Third: Not entirely sure if I agree with the Morph armor losing its skill points, but I think putting the set skill point bonus as the last set bonus and making the mana mixed is probably for the better.

 

F

I WAS ABOUT TO MAKE MY ASSASSIN BUILD WITH IT TOO

 

You didn't check the set bonus, did you. They're listed under the items.

 

I was scrolling over there, but putting as the final set bonus doesn't change a lot; you'd only have +1 tier attack speed when using the full set, with the skill point not leaving any room for free usage of Breezehands or Dstatic Necklace. I guess it's time to dust of the Chestplate of Ineptitude, even if I do understand why you had to nerf Thanos Legionnaire Plate.

 

Imagine using 4/4 thanos legionnare

Realistically, though, could set items drop more often? By the time you have all 4 pieces (of a given midgame set) better stuffs will be available to you

 

I do think set items themselves are a little tricky, as making each piece sub-average without the full set does kinda railroad your build, and having a really nice full set (like old morph) makes the whole thing generic and boring. I feel like higher-level sets are just sub-par to any other options, but making a really good endgame set option will just make everything boring as people will all be using the same stuff.

I think maybe the best fix for this is to have the beginning and mid-game sets heavily emphasize the set bonus, and maybe have some of the higher-level sets a little less reliant on the bonus, but still be a decent option to replace other items.
Either that, or make endgame sets that are acquired through different and interesting means, like the Dark Vexations stuff, or maybe have some set items as rewards for things like LI and such. I think it'd be more interesting than "buy full morph off the market and boom good build"

I really do hope for cool sets in the future, though!

 

Hello! Real quick i wanted to post a builder page for the morph set so people can look at it in a more digestible way, as i have a sneaking suspicion that the set will be a big point of debate. my own opinions on all the set changes will be in a later post

PLEASE NOTE THE SET BONUS IS NOT INCLUDED IN THIS
https://wynndata.tk/s/1jtyus

Edit: Alternatively, here is a build with the set bonus tagged onto the helmet: https://wynndata.tk/s/lmtsp8

 

So I have a couple of concerns about the morph set changes. And no it's not the fact that it breaks my build (Internal REEEEEE).

Playing with the WynnData build Chrono gave us, I put on an Infused Hive Dagger along with T6 powders of each element. This was the result:
https://www.wynndata.tk/builder/?he...ggings_powders=&boots_powders=&action=builder

Now I'm not an expert Class Builder or anything but I feel like this is very broken in a couple of ways.

Firstly, if you theoretically get pretty good ID rolls, you can have 70+ SP in every single stat, which is a solid 50%+ to everything: Your damage, your crit chance, your Mana reduction, your DR, and your Dodge rate. This is already fairly powerful. You can even combine this with SP pots if you want to go overkill to get even higher amount of SP.

Secondly, the DPS you can acquire from this is also really good. 18k smoke bombs is definitely something, and with Infused Hive Bow you can get up to 47k arrow storms.

My main concern here is that the set is not very hard to get. I wouldn't be surprised if a good majority has half or more of the set saved in their bank or on the marketplace already. This is basically a free way to get good rainbow slap DPS imo and I'm not quite sure how to feel about it.

 

The set doesnt have enough damage output. Not only is the intel low, but also the mana sustain compared to the mediocre damage. Its just a solid tanky alround set for endgame.

 

Might just be talking inexperienced and you may be right. Not extremely knowledgeable in class builds. Just my two cents on it.

 

If anything morph is a bit weak, although I guess it is somewhat balanced considering how cheap it is.

 

Consider this build: https://wynndata.tk/s/yil5qs very slightly lower damage, more tankiness, something like 1.5-2 times as much mana sustain. Morph is at best a mediocre slappable set. I do really dislike the design (though less so without revamp's higher weapon reqs), and it's not something I would really call any more than borderline viable, but it's not total garbage like it was in early iterations of revamp.

Still need to go over the rest of the set bonuses more carefully.

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Is there any chance you'd be able to put the set bonus changes together with the changes for the pieces of a set?

 

Ngl morph steel and morph iron seem pretty boring, and imo they should be switched because chestplates are better than pants, and damage is wayy better than ele defense (ele defense is pretty bad overall imo and especially here since the overall set only has 150 each w/bonus)
Edit 1:Also, is it just me or does the adventurer's set seem even more OP? I thought it was already really good (used it till like lvl40 lmao cause I forgot I had it on) but it seems REALLY good now, maybe too good...
Edit 2: Snail set- why remove the defense points from the bonus? Thought the set was focused around tanking and not dmg (str). Also, I get that you added more to the individual pieces, but you also took off the chestplate's points completely so it's still a huge net loss of def (does the extra health "cancel" this out or smth?). Also also, why is there such a huge strength req now? It's not even focused on dmg at ALL and this is just dropped in? It doesn't have raw melee, %melee, etc just a few str points and there's this huge str req. Seems not amazing to me.
Edit 4: kayernn's set is really not good imo, why remove the Mana Regen.
Also, ultramarine has a bit much Mana Regen while we're on the topic, 10/4 or whatever with full set seems wayy to much imo. I would prefer having like 6 or even 4 if it meant more spell raw or spell% on them.

 

I agree that mob drop set items are too difficult to find. Just getting one drop is rare enough, let alone a full set.

Full thoughts on sets:
- Spider Set looks... alright. Considering it's not exactly cheap to get the full set (5 runs of Infested Pit) I think it's kind of mediocre. The poison is nice, and the walkspeed is cool, but it really doesn't have that much going for it imo.
- Adventurer's Set looks like a neat all-around set, particularly with the xp bonus.
- The elemental Relic sets seem to be okay utility sets. Actually obtaining them is extremely difficult though, so honestly it doesn't matter much.
- Bandit's Knuckle Stealing meta time. Anyway, Bandit's Knuckle is kind of mediocre compared to its counterpart. A quick ~35-46% loot bonus is pretty nice for accessories - they look nice for getting gear while leveling on a normal playthrough.
- Bear Set exists, I guess.
- Black Set looks pretty cool.
- Black Catalyst still nerfed into uselessness.
- Regarding the Ornament Set, it'd be nice if the items each had a bit of air damage too, so you get even rainbow damages at the end.
- Nii Set exists, I guess.
- Uth Set is still mediocre.
- Cosmic Set is honestly not even worth using outside of dungeon parties now, because there's no way to do any damage with it. I feel like I should just stop doing ??? and run Criistal or Constrict Collar for XP necklace at endgame.
- Elf Set exists. I suppose it's fine.
- Hello where is the equivalent air damage on Ghostly Set... since when has TW been oriented towards ghosts and spirits?
- Goblin Set has become... something... fast-oriented melee but with lifesteal ok.
- Horse Set difference in levels is pretty big. It's kind of weird to use, I feel like there's not going to be a good use case.
- Jester Set is mediocre.
- Kaerynn Set was already meh and just became even worse...
- Leaf Set is neat I guess.
- Vexing Set got a little cooler, though hard to tell - depends on what's redacted. Could be something... vexing... heh :P
- Nether Set exists. Looks a little cooler.
- Outlaw Set Agi looks epic.
- Pigman Set looks epic too.
- Relic Set exists, I guess it's neat.
- Saint's Set looks really cool, I like the design a lot. WA but with big Def sp and mana regen is awesome.
- Silverfish set has some cool poison.
- Skien's Set doesn't feel particularly useful. It's not bad, I guess, but... eh.
- Slime Set is getting mostly nerfs - the only notable buffs are the poison, and the redacted stat. I sure hope those redacted stats are worth it.
- Snail Set is getting nice tankiness buffs, although I do wish it had kept the Def sp.
- Snow Set looks good.
- Thanos Set sadly is kind of mediocre.
- Ahhh, Tribal Set is great. Low-level +tier option turns vastly more low-level items that were previously garbage into viable options.
- Did you really need to move around the mana regen on Ultramarine and erase everyone's rolls? Couldn't you just swap the designs (and reqs) for Belt and Crown so the old good mana regen rolls don't go away? Aside from that, the set bonus mana regen buff makes it kind of overpowered imo.
- Veekhat/Bovine Set is interesting, to say the least. The raw melee on the helmet actually makes it pretty neat on its own, and the redacted stat looks fun - you can get at most 3 with the full set, but you can get 20 or 23 with one piece of the set. That's very strange.
- Clock Set basically went from sometimes viable to just bad.
- Villager Set is more balanced now, not being stronger than DD/Jera anymore.
- Visceral Set design is awesome, especially if you pair it with a lot of Def/Agi sp. You only have 2k health, but you do okay damage and basically full heal every 10 seconds.

 

https://wynndata.tk/s/ya01m2 maybe use this or this https://wynndata.tk/s/LHtN4Y

 

The second one is a good example of what I was going for (I've never built tanky assassin before so I just kind of slapped some stuff). I'm not sure how the first one is relevant though, since it's not comparable in tankiness to 75/75.

 

the reason that no one builds within the sets is because the sets on their own are bad. The new thanos set gives one tier of attack speed, that doesn't help anything because the set oppresses the use of even one more tier of attack speed with breezehands or diamond static necklace (not sure why you'd even consider using the latter, but there's a lack of attack speed bonus accessories) how will this work in a build? raising a weapon one tier of attack speed and stacking a small amount of raw melee damage doesn't really help anything. The Morph set always used aquarius because the set itself was bad and this new one isn't an exception. A build with intel this low is not a good build for spell and no one's going to use this for melee or hybrid, the only weapon I see working here at all might be black just because of the good mana steal, and even then it does 7.5k spins which is not even good. If you want people to use the full sets, make them usable, don't make them bad. I get that if you have a full set that makes a good build it can be seen as over powered, but there's literally no reason to use the set at all if it just makes a less than mediocre build.

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Morph aquarius is popular because it's good. Full morph is unpopular because it's bad.

 

Also @Druser the adventurer's set bonus is on there, maybe try using the find function or something if you can't find it by scrolling

 

I think this puts sets in a somewhat strange place. When I started Wynn 3 years ago I used set items often, but when I reached the endgame I quickly outgrew them except for the infamous jester set and morph stardust. This is exaggerated by moving the power of sets to the back. They would almost never see use in endgame builds, and would be strictly a beginner item. For players on their first playthrough it would be more worthwhile to seek to complete a whole set. If it's intentional that sets remain a beginner thing, while better builds require effort to make, I like the idea.

As for the individual changes, not sure how I feel yet because it's a lot to read.