How Wynn Breaks Immersion

The way I see the completions of dungeons is a type of memory in the first place. The key has some sort of significance, and every time you complete the dungeon, you're simply snapped back to the real world. By completing the memory, the Key itself transforms into the dungeon reward. This would also explain why you'd need the key, or why NPCs' dialogue doesn't change in the first place.

Think of it as Hollow Knight dream bosses. For those who don't know anything about hollow knight or dream bosses in general, certain bosses' minds can be accessed after fighting them by using a specific item. While it is not shown, the second you enter their mind, your physical body passes out. Then, your mind fights the boss again. When you wake up, if you successfully defeat them, absolutely nothing seems to have happened, but your item is stronger.

 

That would be viable, but ONLY if it is made explicitly clear that the keys transport you into its memory... In hollow knight the usage of the dream nail, the different attack patterns, having to travel through the dreamscape before you get to the boss, ALL make it very clear that its the dream boss. Not the original. Here we are led to believe it's the same one every time.

 

Most of the endgame items from what I've seen stayed the same (there were a few such as byte I believe going down by one run but eh). I still don't understand how it takes people 20+ minutes or whatever to do FF though. Maybe that's just because I've done it so much to the point where I can do it in 10-15 ish minutes on average with pretty much every class but whatever. There's also a very good reason those cost so much and it is because they are arguably some of the best items in the entire game. Gigabyte, for example, is still 8 shards iirc. I'd be willing to argue that gigabyte is one of the most versatile necklaces in the game, and due to this it makes it one of the best necklaces in the game. It is perfectly reasonable why you would have to grind for it so much.

You should be allowed to do dungeons alone if you need to get gear rather than relying on others to get it. Having it where the current dungeons requires you to work with multiple people and take hours to complete turns down players even more. It's why people despise ??? unless they have a friend circle to do it with, and even then it is still looked down upon.

The current dungeon reward system for the current dungeons should stay the way it is unless there is a certain reward that just requires way too much. No matter what you try and do, dungeon grinding is just a part of how MMORPGs work with them. Even dungeons with raid bosses eventually just become a grinding simulator for players, fun or not fun. I would be fine with seeing future, not current, dungeons have the idea you are recommending (ex. Orphion in the Light Realm) though.

However, some of the current dungeons, I will admit, do need to be changed so they're actually fun to do (AHEM Undergrowth Ruins AHEM). The new SST, FF with its new conveyor belt, and UC are really the only dungeons I would actually say don't need any changes (outside of legitimate bugs of course or very miniscule things). If Infested Pit was actually designed to make you internally despise doing it (not in the way that it is boring, but just the nature of being a legit spider nest) than that one also is fine as is. All the others just seem kind of lackluster and lose their effect relatively quickly compared to these, some getting so boring so quickly to the point where you want to burn them in a fire and watch their ashes fall in front of you imo (AHEM U N D E R G R O W T H R U I N S AHEM).

I'm about to go on an all out rant about my hatred for undergrowth please help.

 

Just because something is different does not mean it is good. Wynncraft is not a total RPG. Our main goal is the gameplay, not the story. If making things feel nice for the story makes the gameplay less engaging and fun the story will be left behind, not the gameplay. Changing MMORPG mechanics for the sake of being new and unique is how you kill a game. You should change them when you come up with a new a mechanic that is better than what is there, but that is not always possible; especial when we are limited with what we can do, being that this is a Minecraft MMORPG. Sometimes you can have a cool idea but it's just not possible through this medium.

Any lore fix anyone could come up with for immersion breaking gameplay will have it's own problems. lets take the memories idea. A few lore problems with it. Why would you keep the items you got in a memory? Why is it you have said memories? What if you die in the memory? Why is the player even having the memories in the first place? Why is it you have items that you didn't have in the memory (If you were level 4 when you first killed the big bady and now your going back as a level 3000000 or something)? If most of the game is a memory, why does the game matter? That last one is a bit more subconscious but it will be on the players mind when playing, even if they don't realize it. Because Game Design is about getting into players heads and understanding what they themselves may not understand nor be able to convey.

If a lot of the game is a memory it brings to the players attention all these nitpicky things about mmo's. In the end a game is smoke and mirrors and if you spend way to much time trying to cover that up you can sometimes bring attention to it and ruin immersion by trying to fix small immersion breaking issues.

In the end if a gameplay problem is messing with lore adding lore will not really fix it. Coming up with I can't stress this enough, better gameplay (not unique, better) that also helps fix the immersion breaking issues is the only thorough way to fix said issues. The problem is coming up with new and better gameplay that also happens fits with lore, and then implementing said gameplay is VERY difficult. Industry professionals have a hard time doing this. Putting the bandage of a bit of lore to fix this problem really does not fix it and in some cases could add to it.

I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm using your idea as an example of why you can't just fix gameplay immersion problems with lore. You need to fix it with the gameplay. But if that fix hinders gameplay then it should not be done. It's a very complex system and in the end sacrifices have to be made somewhere to make the game good. In an MMO's case, the continuity and lore is always going to be sacrificed to some degree. We can always improve these sacrificed elements (make them better), but not in a way that hinders what has been chosen to be the mainstay of the game. If you do that your game losses its mainstay.

I would rather spend thousands of hours making wynncrafts gameplay better than make it worse or left behind for the sake of immersion or continuity. Because not doing so gives the game no focus.
(Edit) I did go off on a bit of a tangent but it was to hopefully convey the bigger picture.

(Edit again) The reason I focus on this part of your argument is because this is what I specialize in and or disagree with. The other parts of your original post I either agree with or do not feel like I have a good enough explanation to debate with.

(Edit again again XD) I feel like I should say again I am not angry or trying to make you look bad. I'm glad your pointing out problems and offering solutions. I am trying to explain my stance and to some extent I guess wynn's stance on said solutions. It is good that you are offering to help and you're not entirely wrong in saying these are problems tbh.

 

Then again, the worth of an item should be calculated by how hard it is to obtain. Better items are harder to obtain, simple MMORPG logic. But doing a dungeon 23929082409 times is not hard. It is grindy. Repeatitive. And saying "Well it just is how MMORPGs work" is exactly the same as "Well others smoke, too, so should be cool if I start smoking, too." Just because others do it that way doesn't make it good.

But I guess it is the only fair way without making it RNG, whereas many people would complain if it was like that. Or maybe, just maybe, someone with enough knowledge comes across and has a method that satisfies both sides, the anti-grinders and anti-rngers.

 

I disagree. The value of an item should be based on the effort or time required to actually get something. Putting time into something should reward you for your efforts regardless of the situation in these types of games. If you put no time into doing something you shouldn't be rewarded for it, hence why grinding for rewards in dungeons is perfectly acceptable with how the current reward system works. The problem with making it RNG based is that you are now working towards something that has the chance to never, ever happen, despite how hard you may try. Some RNG isn't necessarily a bad thing, but total RNG typically is.

And no, it's not exactly the same as smoking. Stop trying to compare a video game design to a real life health problem. It's honestly stupid and has nothing to do with the conversation other than to try and make me look bad. If you're here to do that, nothing good will come out of it for anyone. I see the point you are trying to make, but that it such a ridiculous comparison to make.

 

1. Very long read, thanks for putting the time in.
2. Note I’m not saying to change the gameplay / lore so it’s unique from MMORPGs out there, I’m saying to make it better so that it still offers fun, engaging content without ruining the immersive and cohesiveness of the world. I was merely stating that it would end up being unique, as no other MMORPG has seemed to find an effective improvement. Was also saying that the system isn’t automatically the best system just because other MMORPGs do it, and that if we try hard enough we might be able to think of something better. Overall I favor gameplay over story. I believe that the gameplay should always come first and then the story should be based on the gameplay. That being said, immersion and cohesiveness are what comes between making a game simply good, or a masterpiece. If we can figure out a way to merge these two ideas (strong gameplay with heavy immersion, which is why I have posted this thread), then Wynn too could be considered a masterpiece. In my eyes at least. Right now there’s not much that is immersive or cohesive in Wynn, as I see it.

As to the memory idea I completely agree it would result in a lot of plot holes, gameplay restrictions, and overall it would be “smoke and mirrors” as you put it. Not a ton of thought was put into it obviously, Was something that was thought up quickly without a ton of consideration. Edits have been made ;)

________________________________

I think how difficult it is to obtain compared to how much time and effort it takes are the exact same thing, unless RNG is involved.

 

Easily related to each other, but different. Like Kaname said, running dungeons isn't exactly what I would call "difficult", but it does take time and effort to grind for items you need from the dungeons. Challenging things do require said time and effort, but not all things that require time and effort are challenging. Going off topic from dungeons for a moment here, but the same thing can honestly be said for professions at the moment. It is technically easy to level up any profession, but the time it requires you to actually level them is a huge amount, especially in the 70+ range.

 

the foundry/corrupted guardians being in gavel makes no sense whatsoever, considering gavel is completely free of corruption (eye of the storm does not exist, never will exist, and never has existed) and probably shouldnt have a gateway to the corrupt in the middle of an area without the slightest hint of corruption. a nice way to fix this is rebranding the corrupted guardians, and moving the foundry to the nether portal.

another problem is rooted deep into wynn and can be fixed. why cant troms just come and help ragni with lvl ~60 men? this goes for all other low-level areas under siege. also, the nether portal areas weak as fuck. just send a couple ahmsord golems to the portal, wars over, see you all after lunch.

 

That last part begs the question, how is the level of mobs and players reflected in a story point of view? Obviously it's mainly for just gameplay, but we gotta use everything we got :ok_hand:

 

Shit, we’ve been looking at everything from the wrong perspective this whole time!

 

About the ”No impact”
Sometimes, when you do a quest, an NPC changes dialogue. Such as ”Detlas citizen” if you do ”Maltic’s well”

 

whats really started to bother me is realizing how many important game mechanics are left completely unexplained, such as:

- spell mana cost resets
so you know how casting the same spell multiple times in a row raises mana costs after 2 at the default price? pretty important to know so you wont just only spam bomb arrows but thats not told anywhere within the game afaik, and i know multiple people whove gotten to 100 without knowing how exactly this mechanic works

- raw spell damage
you get 100 raw spell damage from an armour. how much damage does that give you? well there are actually these multipliers for them for each spell in the game that deals damage, but those arent revealed or even hinted at anywhere. guess you can figure them out by looking at your damage outputs but if you deal any neutral that already sets you off

- elemental conversions on spells
yeah the %s are on the website, but how exactly do they apply? you have your hive bow powdered with 5 t6 water powders, making it so it only shows water damage when you look at it in your inventory, yet your bombs still deal earth and fire damage as well. thats because natural conversion applies before powders and takes its share from the end part of your neutral damage. none of that is in the game and it's about as unintuitive as it seems from my explanation

- life/mana steal activations
oh this helmet gives 2/4s mana steal. so when does that actually activate then if it shows a timer but is also triggered by attacking? well it's in fact only activated by melee attacks (not explained) and its activation is chance-based and depends on your melee attack speed (also not explained). this is another you can figure out by testing a bunch but should that be necessary? currently due to poor understanding of this mechanic has lead to majority of the community sleeping on mana steal completely and using mana regen instead for it's reliability and actually knowing it works

- attack speed spell damage multipliers
you have a very fast weapon with 108-180 (cascade) damage total and a very slow weapon with 375-625 (manablast) damage total. this would seem like the fast weapon is meant for melee since it would make up for the lower damage with speed and the slow weapon would be meant for spells as it has higher damage values but probably wont be as good at dealing melee damage given its slow speed? sounds intuitive but it's completely wrong and usually the exact opposite. good luck figuring that out as a new player

actually a lot of the identifications should be here. whats the damage of explosions based on? what do thorns and reflection really do and whats their difference?

ill come add more as i remember them

 

It feels too blocky

________________________________

my 5fps potato

________________________________

i feel like that would make it less immersive, "Hey by the way, there is thing thing called mana, you can see it the to right of your hp bar, when you cast a spell the mana increases each time after the 2nd time of casting it in a row" I am just imagining the tutorial NPC say that.

________________________________

imagine if if archers had finite ammo that you had to restock, or i sheared someone to death, or beat someone too death, or dug someone to death, thats some true immersiveness

 

bad for immersion yeah but theyre vital game mechanics

 

This is so insignificant that I don’t count it

While those are all kind of annoying, I don’t really see them having a significant impact on immersion since you wouldn’t know the calculations existed in the first place.

Yes, Minecraft is blocky. That’s how it is. Can’t help with your computer.

As to archers having finite ammo and whatnot, I think that would really cool but there would have to be more benefit to having bows... Same goes for having bows draw back like they used to (obviously this is not an optimal idea since it could make calculations harder if you do anything other than multiply the damage output by the percentage of the bow drawn. There is no reason to make bows other items exclusively for the skin now that 1.9 is required we can use however many bow skins as there are durability for it.)

 

yeah I'd place them under the shitty game mechanics as one big "unexplained vital mechanics"

 

It is not about the type of comparison I make. Hell whoever thinks you are a bad person bc you are pro-smoking from reading what I wrote can literally go to bed. And yes, it is not "LIKE SMOKING", but instead, what I was saying is: That argument is the same as the argument I stated: "if everyone else does it, it has to be good". My example was just random, could have been one of a thousand others instead, so it being about smoking was absolutely randomly chosen. Still doesn't prove me wrong with my statement that such argumentation is not well thought out.

"The value of an item should be based on the effort or time required to actually get something". So preparation, failing, etc. doesn't count as time put in? If we gonna use the argument on how "other games manage it", then we should also do it here. I have seen other MMORPGs where Dungeons are too hard to do alone at the required level. Why not make it a lot harder in the first place, so players have to team up? Force them to interact. That is what an MMORPG is about, interaction between players, working together on your adventure. If I wanted to do everything solo, I could honestly just leave it at that, download the map and play it singleplayer. (No need to tell me, I know I can't download the map or play it on singleplayer. Its just, if I could do it, there would be no difference gameplay-wise so far except I would have trouble at a few dungeons and quests and wouldn't be able to trade.) The only dungeons I have ran into problems of soloing so far at the required level are a few of the corrupted ones, such as CIB (which I would run into some trouble when trying to solo it at level 94) or CSST, or FF for that matter. Dungeons should be something special. You find some people, prepare a bit, and just do it. It should be challenging, but the reward therefor better than it is now. The items are good as they are. Hell, Defibrilator is one hell of a weapon at lvl 8. But if they actually made the dungeons harder, I think adapting the xp reward and a lowered ammount of runs needed for the items should also be possible.

Then again, this is just my opinion. Might be that most people are happy with the dungeons as they are now? Who knows? I don't.

 

This. This is what I want out of Wynn, couldn’t have been worded better.

Wynn right now is essentially a single player game with other players thrown into the world. There is very little interaction between players and that which there is is poorly done like in ??? And Bob’s Tomb. You’re right, dungeons should feel special. That’s why I personally prefer more raid-type dungeons where you don’t need to complete them a bunch of times for an item, but they’re much more challenging to overcome and require you to actually work together. Expanding more on the topic would be the roles of classes... I don’t feel like ANY of the classes except maybe assassin feel like how you’d want them to play (in my personal opinion). I’m of the belief that generally speaking a class should have one role it fits. You can use armor and weapons and potions and whatever to get closer and closer to another “role”, but overall your spells and base attributes and whatnot should be specifically to fit that role. For example, it is MY PERSONAL BELIEF that the main purpose of warrior should be tanking damage and keeping members of your party safe and whatnot. I feel like this would be much better reflected if warrior had spells that focused more on doing these things... Like if warrior had a taunt that could take agro or near by mobs... that makes warrior so much more unseful and interesting in a party! More player interactions, no? I’m not going to comment on warriors damage, since I don’t really know if it’s too high or whatever but... idk, just wanted to say this.