How Wynn Breaks Immersion

Hey there people! It's me, your friendly neighborhood idiot again back with another question thread, but obviously I won't put it in questions cause who does that...

Anyways, today I'd like to talk a bit about immersion! For those of you who don't know what immersion is, well... Let me just get a google definition for you, since I'm basically the biggest idiot on the forums and can't explain things... What's that? No short definitions of immersion in a context relating to games? Well, shit, guess I've got to try then...

In my words, immersion is when a game feels so... cohesive, that you feel as if you are a part of a living, thriving world. Everything just feels... right, you know? Everything connects together, there's no holes left in the world, and you could almost forget that you're even playing a game. The world feels like it's real, and there's nothing stopping you from making your mark on it.

Now with that said, I'd like to make it very clear from the start that I don't think Wynn is very immersive. While some of it can be immersive at times, it is often broken by... well, a LOT of different factors. I personally believe that most games, especially of the RPG Genre, should have an extreme focus on being immersive and cohesive. Majority of the time when games are considered "masterpieces", it is because they do these things very well.

What I mean to ask in this thread is, what things in Wynn break the immersion for you? What things make you remember that it's "just a game" and not some living, thriving world that exists regardless of whether or not you're in it. I'll be attempting to reply to some of your ideas with feedback and solutions to fix these problems, if I can think of any. I encourage you to think of some of your own solutions as you comment what breaks immersion for you too!

Now obviously not all immersion breaking parts of Wynn cannot be resolved easily... For example, quests being repeated by multiple people... Why does Enzan need 100,000 people to find his brother? We can't just make it so a quest can only be completed by 1 player and then never again... Yes, that would be more immersive, but then the gameplay would be terrible, considering majority of Wynn's gameplay is quests... Keeping this in mind, here are the things I think breaks immersion in Wynn, and my ideas on how to fix them. I'll also be posting your issues and solutions below ;)

Breakers of Immersion
- Getting teleported to a different world for war, and overall war breaking immersion in general @Theeef
- Dungeons being able to be run multiple times @Theeef

Spoiler: Solutions

Solution by @Theeef removed, see edits below

- Significant bosses being able to be killed multiple times, by multiple people? @Theeef

Spoiler: Solutions

Solution by @Theeef removed, see edits below

- NPCs having the same quests? Like why does Enzan need 100,000 people to go find his brother? @Theeef
- Really shitty and cringey quest dialogue... AKA Basically all of the Corkus quests (my personal opinion) @Theeef

Spoiler: Solutions

@Theeef - While I'm very well aware writing is very difficult, and the solution isn't as easy as "write better dialogues", I'm just going to go ahead and say write better dialogues... Some of the dialogues in the game, specifically throughout Corkus quests (MAXY LITERALLY MAKES ME WANT TO UNINSTALL MINECRAFT, THEIR DIALOGUES ARE SO FUCKING BAD) are very poorly written, and just break any immersion... I'm not trying to shit on any Game Masters, I appreciate all of your work and the effort that goes into these updates, but some of the writing just isn't good... Note, some quests are fine but the dialogues specifically are bad. Ex: "I'm sorry for being so useless in front of you" - Maxy

- Messy story (Mainly gavel, hopefully will be fixed in the revamp) @Theeef

Spoiler: Solutions

@Theeef - My main issue with story is contradictions, plot-holes and lack of communication to the player through the world, cut scenes, history, etc. Again this is mainly in gavel and is getting better everywhere with discoveries and whatnot, so I'll lay off a little bit for now.

- Telling instead of showing... I'm a firm believer that majority of story should be shown (cut scenes, player interaction, exploration, experimentation, etc.) rather than told through quest dialogue. I believe that Wynn fails at this throughout much of the game. It's been getting better through newer quests like Deja Vu, and other mechanics... Discoveries do this a TON in my opinion @Theeef

Spoiler: Solutions

@Theeef - Again, pretty "simple" solution, just try to convey information through showing people things rather than having an NPC telling them. This could be through gameplay, like the Deja Vu quests, terrain, cutscenes, discoveries that DONT use significant text, etc. I'm really bothered by discoveries because they just give you random info about a place by going there. You don't have to work for it at all (I'm talking about regular discoveries). Players should have to work for lore, it makes it much more interesting once you have it. Also like for discoveries, where is this magical voice telling me about everything from? I'd much rather read it in a hidden journal, or see it in a cutscene, or on the walls of a cave or something, rather than learning actually interesting info like how the ocean's waves were calmed through sources that make sense, rather than a random message in chat. Long story short, make players work to get lore, and then have it come through actual sources like books, memories, etc. rather than just giving them a block of text.

- The player has no impact! There's no consequences for their actions, and no long term effects of... anything @Theeef
- The fact that monsters are literally EVERYWHERE and you’re constantly just slaughtering things on every single path you walk through rather than sometimes randomly encountering them @Wynnooblet
- Dungeon Keys... The creature inside is extreme dangerous and they need our help to defeat it... But oh well, we got no key, guess the worlds gonna die or whatever @KanameChan

Spoiler: Solutions

@KanameChan As for the keys: Maybe make it so that you have to show proof to the NPC that you are capable of besting the dungeon, like some rare item that can be dropped by the respectable mobs from the dungeon. Lets say that the low-level zombies can drop something like "Zombie Heart" with a chance of like 1% per zombie, which can then be given to the NPC and he says "I deem your strong enough to enter this place and best its creature. Please, help us.".

- Excessive Teleports (generally speaking, too many teleports in the world to out of map, etc.) @SilverMirror
- Key and Relic Guardians Being Too... Out of place? @SilverMirror

Spoiler: Solutions

@SilverMirror - Another thing I think take the immersion away is how certain things are definitely there for a single purpose, I know this is weird but the thing I am thinking is dungeon key guardians and relic guardians. A better way to do them might be just disguise them into something else, but again I'm not a game design expert, they just scream "hey man you're playing a video game and you should kill this mob for this thing!" to me.

- Corrupted Guardians and Forgery Being in Gavel, the Province of Light @shamos200

Spoiler: Solutions

@shamos200 move the forgery to the Roots of Corruption and "rebrand" the Key Guardians

- Why cant Troms help lvl. 11 Ragni with Level 60 Men? And mobs at the portal are lvl 25... Why can't we just get some level 100 Guards and call it a day? @shamos200
- Bows are instant fire and have infinite ammo @7Mile

Spoiler: Solutions

@Theeef While the obvious “solution” here would be to make it so bows require you to pull them back like they used to, and make it so you need arrows to use them, this would likely not be good for gameplay if implemented with the current class system. I’d like to comment on this a bit. I would be completely down to have to craft / gather arrows and draw my bow back, but only if there were other positive effects that balanced it out. For example, having range is nice with archer obviously. It keeps you from having to get close to mobs and helps you to... well, not die. I feel like if range is made to be more crucial / beneficial then having the extra time to get a fully charged attack and having to gather arrows would be reasonable. Sure, you could just give archer more damage but I feel like the defining characteristic of archer should be it’s range. Classes like assassin should shine in the damage department. That’s just my opinion. Note this is possible in the first place, if you’re criticizing it from the skin point of view. A bows max durability is over 300 so that’s enough to have 300+ bow skins.

Shitty Mechanics List
- Things mentioned by players that I completely agree with, although don't think are 100% immersion related -
- Multiple Dungeon Runs For Items @KanameChan

Spoiler: More Comments

@KanameChan - Multiple runs for certain items.
It is just a pain in the forehead to have to repeat the same long dungeon again and again, and while I think we all appreciate the work that has been put into the Dungeons, I think I am not the only one who thinks that doing a Dungeon 8 times just for that one item is not a good mechanic. I am by no means someone capable of having great Gameplay ideas, but maybe one way to stop the repeatitiveness would be to have certain artifact-like things spawn randomly in the dungeon (ofc they are somewhat hidden) which can be picked up by the player and be exchanged for the items at the dungeon merchant?

- Unexplained vital mechanics (identifications) @Madkurre

Spoiler: More Comments

It’s never clearly stated how identifications like mana steal, elemental damage and defense, etc. are calculated in addition to other local and global modifiers

TL;DR Wynn has a lot of things that break immersion, and they should be fixed.
NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS A PRIORITY AND IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED IMMEDIATELY. DO NOT GIVE ME THE USUAL BULLSHIT RESPONSE OF "This would take too long and isnt important". IT IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE FIXED EVENTUALLY, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT IT IS A CURRENT PRIORITY. Thanks <3

Edits:
- Removed solution by @Theeef to multiple dungeon runs and multiple boss deaths... idea was for them to be memories that could be relived by the player to maintain immersion but overall just creates more issues

 

please fix maxy's dialogue

 

At least for me, such a "memory" thing would probably break immersion even more, as it feels very inkhorn. It would directly point at the inconsistencies without providing a good solution, while in the current system, I can just overlook them.

 

Would have to be implemented properly obviously so I can see why you might think that. On my server where the idea originated there were more ties into lore and the world that make it seem much more cohesive and logical. Obviously I cannot give those same reasons here since I don’t write the story of Wynn or build the world. That is for GMs and Builders to decide.

 

The fact that monsters are literally EVERYWHERE and you’re constantly just slaughtering things on every single path you walk through rather than sometimes randomly encountering them

 

Some of this seems like good points, but others feel like overly nitpciky because in the end, I feel like the main focus of Wynn should provide gameplay. Naturally things like wars and repeatable dungeons seem out of place, but they're intended that way for the sake of gameplay. If anything, I feel like constantly being told you're returning to memories would feel really weird, as if you're reading a book rather than playing a videogame. Wynn definitely has some weird stuff (copper gems? hemp strings?) and like Wynnooblet said above monsters are everywhere. Total immersion just feels impossible to achieve.

Like you said, having quests show instead of tell is nice, but that takes time to do. I'd rather have new content rather then revamp every single quest to have a ton of cutscenes.

That last thing you mentioned though is really interesting though... the player is just there. The game is never about you at all it seems, aside from a few quests such as Beyond the Grave. Your name and feats of heroism is mentioned elsewhere every now and then but that's it. I'd love for the player to feel like a bigger part of the world.

 

Yeah, I've definitely seen better writing. It's a pity the bad dialogue shows up as early as during the tutorial. Red marked text is unnecessary, blue marked text is cringy.

Spoiler: Images

I timed the tutorial by the way - it takes about eight minutes to get through this. I can very well imagine lots of new players quickly losing interest in the game when they join.

 

On your comment on being nitpicky and providing content

Otherwise I agree. The analogy of memories to a book is accurate, but the same could be said for literally every discovery in Wynn. You walk into a territory? Here's some random information from nowhere. You complete a secret discovery? Sometimes you'll get a cutscene, or a book, which is great! But they feel completely separate from the world, and then you get the random block of text anyways.

________________________________

*cough* Apply for GM and fix these shitty dialogues please *cough*

 

The things about dungeons in general are the following:

First of all: Keys.
Why even? What the heck?

"This Guy is very dangerous and we need your help to defeat him, or else he will destroy the world. But HALT. First you have to give me a key. Wait. You don't have the key? Well, can't let you in unless you give me a key. Go around and search for one while this dude just chills in the Dungeon."

Second of all: Multiple runs for certain items.
It is just a pain in the forehead to have to repeat the same long dungeon again and again, and while I think we all appreciate the work that has been put into the Dungeons, I think I am not the only one who thinks that doing a Dungeon 8 times just for that one item is not a good mechanic. I am by no means someone capable of having great Gameplay ideas, but maybe one way to stop the repeatitiveness would be to have certain artifact-like things spawn randomly in the dungeon (ofc they are somewhat hidden) which can be picked up by the player and be exchanged for the items at the dungeon merchant? And as for the keys: Maybe make it so that you have to show proof to the NPC that you are capable of besting the dungeon, like some rare item that can be dropped by the respectable mobs from the dungeon. Lets say that the low-level zombies can drop something like "Zombie Heart" with a chance of like 1% per zombie, which can then be given to the NPC and he says "I deem your strong enough to enter this place and best its creature. Please, help us.".

I know those ideas are really bad, but when saying "this and that is wrong imo" then I at least have to give some advice on how it could be done better imo.

Well anyway, thats all I had to say.

 

imo half of the above are just mmorpg mechanics... like you cant expect npcs to not give quests to multiple people, or bosses not respawning, or dungeon not being able to do several times. Those are vital in the core of the gameplay and shouldn't count as breaking immersion. In general I think breaking immersion should be how the gameplay makes you feel less of adventuring but you are actively reminded that you are playing a video game. Typical mmorpg mechanics kinda get a pass in that one coz its part of the metagaming experience in general and not really related to the adventuring experience, anyone that plays these sort of games already expected things like that to exist, and from a single player adventurer perspective, theres nothing wrong with taking a quest from a single npc, or exploring a ruin multiple times. So I think in focusing on these nitty gritty details it kinda loses sight on the bigger picture. However, I do agree with how wynncraft can break immersion sometimes, but not exactly in the way you described it as.

For one, I think there is an overuse of teleporters in various areas, not teleporting to war server but just in general. I remember back in the olden days it sometimes amuses me that after exploring some very obscure areas you actually walk out to a part of the main map without teleporting and I be like, "woah, turns out this is what behind this" or "woah, turns out this house is for this quest". But with the technology advances and I guess more sophisticated quest designs, and map expansions, it kinda cant avoid using a lot of teleporters..? Not sure, I'm not the expert, but thats just how I feel.

I do agree with the messy storyline and how players don't actually have much impact over the game world. The player seems to have very little relevance in events happening in the game. The game world also very seldom reference events happened by the player or just events happening in other parts of the world. This may be boiled down to information is harder to convey in the fantasy world setting if you squint at it but imo this is something that can be improved by a long shot. And yes, I know there are part of the world that does this, but consider how important (i think) the player is supposed to be in the "story" (whatever thats left in it after x amount of retcons), there can be more things that tie everything together.

Another thing I think take the immersion away is how certain things are definitely there for a single purpose, I know this is weird but the thing I am thinking is dungeon key guardians and relic guardians. A better way to do them might be just disguise them into something else, but again I'm not a game design expert, they just scream "hey man you're playing a video game and you should kill this mob for this thing!" to me.

However, one thing I really think strengthens the immersion is ingredients, which, in higher tier, they are "parts" that drop from special/rare mobs, so it feels like that ingredient is actually something you harvest from that particular mob that you just killed, instead of having a universal drop to a dozen of mobs. Well I mean there are still plenty of those around but you get my point.

Yeah this is just my two cents on the topic, I know CT saying things are kinda the hot topic atm so this is a disclaimer that all of the above are my personal opinion and has nothing to do with CT and does not contain any inside knowledge from the CT. I hope I dont get banned or crucified. Thx.

 

While I agree that a handful of the points mentioned here are generally considered key "MMORPG mechanics", that does not mean we shouldn't try to break the mold a bit and find creative and unique ways to make these ideas still work without breaking immersion.

I agree with all of your other points, they've been included in the thread ;)

 

I get why the dungeons need keys, because you can't just waltz in or you'd have all the items in no time. What I don't get though are the dungeon guardians. Who are they? Why are they there? Why do they have a key on them? Are they from the dungeon? You used to have to buy the keys, which didn't make a lot of sense at the time, but when they changed that they also added a shady-looking merchant who sells dungeon scrolls. Why not have him sell the keys?
Also, some of the dungeon guardians are really annoying. The Infested Pit one is fast and runs away when you hit him, the Ice Barrows one freezes you (the devs might have changed that though, it didn't do it last time I checked), the Sand-Swept Tomb guy basically uses a machine-shotgun which is simply put dumb, and the Underworld Crypt guardian doesn't stop charging. Oftentimes when I'm grinding one of those guys will show up and it's just frustrating.

That may be a pretty good idea.

 

Apply! I certainly would if GMs got paid a working salary but we all know that's not possible and otherwise I don't have the time so reeeeee!

 

Thats not my point, its just, why would you need a key when charon himself already told you you could come? What does the key do? Who is the key guardian to have the power to prevent legendary players (we players call them lvl 104s) from entering the dungeon? Why do they do that, when its obvious every help is needed to defeat this world-threatening monster?
That was my point. If you read carefully, you would have noticed I added an alterantive handling of the situation that doesnt say "Free to enter".

________________________________

Welp, too late for that, buddy.

You could make a religion out of this though.....
Silverism?

(Yeah, for this one, I used my 100 Skillpoints in Arts to make this masterpiece. No touching, just looking!)

 

This also applies to @KanameChan.
Having to repeat a dungeon repeatedly to get gear or just grind in general is just how dungeons themselves as a mechanic in video games work most of the time. Me, @Dr Zed, and @InfernoWraith, and maybe a couple others debated over dungeon items in the feedback section over what their price should or should not be. I, of course, can't say if we had any actual influence on these recent changes, but some dungeon items have actually been lowered in cost (ex. Admiral went from being 10 Redbeard hairs to 6, the weapons from UG went from 7 or whatever they were to 4, Witherhead's Talisman went from 6 to 3, etc. iirc) to better fit their level in how many times you have to do them.

Your solution to this problem isn't very good because it adds RNG into the mix of completing a dungeon. Rather than feeling a sense of working towards getting something, you instead are relying solely on RNG for if you find the said artifact in the dungeon. It can also be easily abused, as the artifact or whatever could very easily spawn at the very start and you could immediately leave the dungeon via scroll or /kill with the item and run back to the dungeon and get the reward with no consequences (outside of only a couple sp being lost at max). Even if they only spawned in certain spots throughout the dungeon, it would then become ridiculously easy to stay in the dungeon, wait in that one spot for it to spawn repeatedly, kill it repeatedly, and then leave with all the loot. If it were to be added where you could find it in the dungeon and still beat the dungeon to get the normal reward, it would still be pretty busted due to my points above.

This is why I feel debating over the actual value of the items you can get from dungeons is better than debating over how to change the reward system of dungeons, as the reward system itself is fine as it is in terms of dungeons. The problem lies where certain rewards require you to do ridiculous amounts of runs to get them and they end up not even being that good (such as the UG items before their price was lowered).

However, I will agree that the key system is pretty damn silly, and your suggestion to change it isn't bad either.

It doesn't freeze you, but it does have superbly high anti-kb, gives you slowness two (or three I forget) as a spell, and also has pull spell, which effectively makes it really annoying to fight. He's super easy to ignore since he's slow without getting hit by a kb spell though.

 

I get your point, and while I must say that I didnt notice these recent changes, I have to say something about your critique for my idea.

Yes, it adds somewhat of RNG, because the items don't spawn in the same place over and over again. You have to look for them, maybe do small parkours. If you die, you lose them. You only get to keep the artifacts when completing the dungeon by killing the boss. Items or mobs only spawning once each run is already a thing since boss altars. That way, there should be no problem with the system except the whole artifact-system itself being "stupid". Then again, I just think that doing a dungeon 8-10 times was wayyyyy too much to get 1 item when considering one run takes around 20+ Minutes in the lategame, making it around 2.5+ hours to get 1 item, but if the cost of items has been lowered in some recent updates, I guess this makes my argument obsolete.

 

There’s 2 Santas

 

Just going to comment on this because it's similar to what SilverMirror said... You're arguing that dungeons in MMORPGs are just inherintly grindy, I believe that you know... rather than doing the same thing literally every other game does, we could try and you know... make them good. Like what if rather than being super grindy they were more like raids that took hours to complete and required well leveled parties and were actually challenging... Then you have your choice of items at the end, or you could get them in a "fragment" system similarly to what @KanameChan said... Just a thought

As for the value of dungeon items, that isn't my place since I really fucking despise dungeons and never do them.

 

Nah, there's just one who travels back and forth really quickly using Christmas magic

 

Having 2 residences (and Airpods) because he is a rich boyyyy.