Guild Feeding Rules Clarification (mods Read Plz)

This is the only part of your post im gonna reply on for now.

It's easy for you to say as a member of Fox. Hmm I dunno, maybe people aren't joining the absoltue strongest because competition and the ability for there to be more than one guild/central body of guilds who can fairly compete to be the kingpin. IT's like you're promoting the "If you can't beat them, join them" mentality, which btw is a very short-sighted anti-fun, and egotistical thing to say to somebody who's lower down on the dominance totem pole than you. The larger a group gets, each subgroup that joins gets less individuality, and the people here who don't wanna join you maybe want their time to shine, if at least for a short time. There should be a constant flux, and that's what HAX used to be halting, and now it sounds like Federation is becoming the new that, but many times worse.

I honestly think that y'all at the top would have more fun with the game if you actually felt unease from time to time and had to put effort and strategy into your mob defenses, rather than just being a placeholder for your allies. But that's just me, maybe it's not true for all of y'all.

 

First off, last time I checked the US government hasn't fallen.
That aside, your "fair competition" would just eliminate the majority of what's fun about guilds. People ally and team up because they like strategy and feel rewarded, you can't stop that from happening. Federation is a result of that, and banning it would cause guilds to be a mess of random attacks that'd soon tire everyone.

 

The whole point of guilds is for competition; alliances are made specifically to address these competitions and to overpower many other guilds fighting for the map. Federation, as an example, is a community war guild that divides its territories between each guild. [Mox] is a relatively new guild to Federation, yet their warring skills are actually not that bad. [DDT], however, is a new guild made from [LEF] when their guild leader left. Don't expect a guild with about 5 people in each major timezone to have a capability to war as great as [Fox] or [Imp].

As @GOden02 said, "jp has literally said 'defenses aren't meant to hold land, they're just meant to stall for time', so this entire point is kinda invalidated. Sorry fam." Defenses are meant to stop the enemy guild trying to take over your territory.

About [Fox] helping [ERN] and [HoL], would your guild really just stand and watch and laugh as a guild in The Round Table struggles to take a territory? Absolutely not. [Fox] and other guilds in Federation are doing essentially, what they need to do to keep the alliance thriving.

[HoL], on the other hand, has been pretty inactive (if I can say so) recently. Because of their inactivity, their members do not really war that much now, and because of this, other guilds have taken their territories. Once [HoL] comes out of this, they will be able to reclaim their territories, kept by other members of the guild to safeguard for future purposes. The idea of "spoonfeeding" or "feeding" comes out of rule 18: Do not use alternate guilds or sub-guilds to maintain territory. In addition, [HoL] has pretty much lost their leader and their entire war capacity. Do you really think they'll be able to attack a 900 level 50 and 10 level 100's territory in 3 minutes without any good and dedicated warrers?

This concept of "alternate guilds" and "sub-guilds" comes out of members of a lower guild specifically from re-made guilds specifically for warring and for taking control of the whole map. Is a guild in Federation doing this? If so, you have a valid reason to complain. But guilds in Federation are guilds compiled from community war guilds banding together to help each other grow and to take control of the map.

thanks goden for letting me copy half of your post :)

 

Yeah but it's gotten far too extreme. If no checks are implemented, Federation WILL NOT be a threat to anyone have will have zero to worry about, they'll have more overreach than Hax everdid. Tell me, honest question Kitten, were you someone who was opposed to the Hax dominance and felt the rule changes were needed, or were you on their side and felt the measures taken for balance were unfair? I'm not judging you, I just wanna know so I can get an idea of what you said then and what you're saying now.

 

Tell me, if you're complaining about a single alliance holding the entire map, why don't you make an alliance and siege that alliance? About 5-10 guilds slaughtered all 100 [Hax] territories in under half a day.

 

Prior to Imperial's revival around half a year ago I wasn't really focused on guilds so it didn't concern me.
Not having my guild in power has always been an opportunity for wars and growth, though I do oppose any actual rule violation, such as feeding done by Hax when they were in power, aka. actually having sub-guilds that shared members and were essentially the same.

 

Realize that we've been in power for less time than any other alliance, except maybe Coalition. There's zero reason to complain right now. Complaining back when Hax was in power was alright, they had the map for nearly a year, but we've had it for a few months, maybe.

People are just impatient, smh. We'll fall eventually, just not yet. There's no reason to make rules just to pull us down faster.

 

That's becuase HAx gave up! If they wanted to stay competing they would be, and ffairly successful at keeping at least a handful of territories at a time on most days, cuz theyre still a huge guild with many big players and resources. It's not easy to just "make an alliance" than can rival Federation.

Ah, so you were not in Hax when you had a problem with it, but now that you're part of this Federation dominance (being a guild in it) you all of a sudden think the system is has nothing wrong with it. This is >>literally the same problematic dominance Hax had, except worse<< but since you're a target of all this protest, your alliance's power is clouding your judgment I think. Tell me, am I wrong?

Again, I don't know a huge lot about Feeding, but Hax did much more than feeding, and the bottom line is that something fishy was going on that kept them at the top with little to no threat of falling. How is this Federation situation any less problematic?

EDIT: @GOden02 More than a few months lol. Even if Federation is bigger than it was a few months ago, roughly the same group of guilds has held massive territorial dominance nearly unwavering a short time after Hax got regulated and pretty much gave up on warring. That's been a LONG time, and the pool of guilds holding land narrowed even further since the last update regarding the whole new Territory Defense mechanics. Also, it is simply much much MUCH harder to penetrate a 8+ guild alliance than it was to take HAx's places now and then, as they were just 1 guild.

It's not the length of time, it's the scope, and the scope is ridiculous.

 

Because we actually fight back and forth instead of having glitched territories that resulted in "no threat of falling"

 

Because we didn't use subguilds, glitches or any shady tactics outside of just keeping mutual agreements to help each other out because you seem to be forgetting that's exactly what an alliance is for.

 

Sorry about this, not to keen on the formatting, so I'll just use my 4chan arrows to quote instead.

>I disagree, as it still takes at least a minute to take the territory, and considering most guilds we, ahem "feed" to don't have many war capable people, it's much likelier that it'll be one person soloing the territories to reclaim for their guild, equating to it more probably being three minutes per territory. Doesn't seem like feeding when I could take a 50 mob GMY territory in far less time which mind you is what they defend with every time, 50 mobs
As your guild leader said earlier, guild wars should be a competition. If you have a person who's soloing against a guild that has 3 people warring, isn't it logical that the 3 person guild should win? (assuming each person is roughly equal in ability) Might not seem like feeding when you can take a GMY terr, but if you're trying to take back your Federation assigned land, why does that GMY terr in some other guild's Federation assigned land matter to you?

>2: No, that's literally what 90% of both side's guilds use for FFA territories (most guilds in Fed do, and CNM has been doing in your alliance, more probably would if they actually took ffas)
Fair point, I understand your logic, but again, much faster than a normal 1000 mob war.

>3: No, again, going back to the time thing, this takes at least three and a half minutes to take, and on average, assuming the guild is one with a weaker war front and usually solos territories, this would take eight and a half minutes if you are a perfect human being that kills everything the exact second it spawns.
Back to competition. Being a solo warrer means your guild is weaker. You don't deserve to keep up with guilds with more people warring. It allows anyone to solo as well, since most level 100 endgame builds have no problems with level 50 mobs.


>Yeah, because you guys seem to have a fondness for attacking at insane hours (2AM EST? /WHO DOES THIS/) where the smaller guilds usually don't have any support.
Not everyone lives in the same timezone. Smaller guilds having up support at those hours means that it's their own fault.

>If you try and attack during the day (Lets use ERN for example here), you guys get beat back successfully most of the time. Of course we have to step in and assist them, having four guilds target one guild all at once is kinda overwhelming and would lead to a swift defeat without ally help, wouldn't it? It's pretty simple really.
Assist them by giving them wars that are much easier than what they would normally need to fight. Back to the grey light of feeding.

>Also, as for a 'light defense', yes, we do use light defenses on allied territories, because we know that they'll be claimed by the guild who is supposed to own them anyway, and rather soon, so why spend thousands of emeralds pointlessly knowing that when you could save money for your guild instead?
No guild (under normal circumstances) is "supposed" to own a territory. And again, back to the grey line between light defense and feeders. Also sometimes, territories aren't claimed by the guilds that Federation assigned (HoL again. (I'm using them since I'm extremely familiar with their case)).

>The entire point of an alliance is to help our allies and stay in power. So, when Fox had the opportunity to help out HoL by defending a little light to keep BCr and HoL at equal paces, they took it. It's not feeding, it's simply just trying to help out a guild that isn't able to war at the same pace as a larger one due to lack of members.
And when we began to attack Fox territories and you had to defend slightly less lighter, we were able to stop HoL. Your light defenses were so light HoL kept up a faster pace with less people. Again, comes down to the grey line between feeding and lightly defending.

>Tell me, when/if Round Table controls the map, will you guys just sit on the sidelines and watch if we attacked one of your guilds full force instead of stepping in to help?
Who said we wanted to the control the map? Also thanks for using our name, I was worried it wasn't gonna catch on :)

>Yeah they gave up, because Fox just ended up being forced to defend with the same amount of mobs you guys did. Making that illegal literally invalidates the entire point of having guilds to help you out.
The idea is that guilds shouldn't be able to help you out... Alliances should be able to help you attack, not help you defend.

>Correction, one takes more time than the other. If HoL had three people warring, the territories would both take a negligible time. But they don't. Whoops?
Right, I use difficulty and time interchangeably, so thanks for keeping me honest. If HoL has 3 people warring, the 50 mob defense would take a negligible time, but the 910 mob would take a lot longer (due to spawn rates). If HoL can't get 3 people warring, then they're losing in competition and don't deserve to hold onto territories.

>Yes it allows us to control the map.. Do you understand the point of an alliance? They're made to take control or hold control of the map. If we didn't help each other out, what would be the point of being allies anyway? Of course we want to stay in power, why else would we be allies (ignoring the fact that perhaps its a community type thing, like SDU and Fux).
Which is the exact point that I was addressing in my post. Wynnchairman>
This member's argument is that this counts as feeding and should not be allowed. Apparently this allows Fed to control the map? honestly i dont really see how his logic works either.
heres some excerpts of what he's said:
I'm trying to explain how I think his logic works.

>You answered your own question probably, though we have had some new captains recently. We do have a specific defense for allied territories (Hell, you literally stated it early, 900 lv50 mobs and 10 lv100s), and if that isn't put, the captain that's warring isn't doing their job. If you know who this person is that's not defending territories or find out who, feel free to shoot me (Goden#5121 on discord) or BlueFire28, the Fox warteam leader (BlueFire28#8926) a dm with the name of the person and we'll get it handled (or I'll just relay it to blue if you choose to speak to blue, whatever).
Right, I'd love to figure it out. I can send you some screenshots with timestamps of the various times it's happened, and you can figure it out from who's warring in that time/zone. I'll DM you on discord later. This has been going on for quite a bit if I remember (we started keeping evidence recently though, so we only have a few week's worth of screenshots.)

>Lastly, yeah, Mox isn't exactly the strongest guild out there, but the thing is that Mox applied to be in Federation. Other guilds could be in Federation too, but they haven't applied. We don't come to you to ask you to be in the alliance, you have to come to us (contrary to Round Table, might I add). If you own a high leveled guild and care to join us, feel free to shoot @Drew1011 a dm and ask him for the application.
Quite weird that you don't advertise this application more, or leave a link somewhere for it. But your choice, as well as ours to recruit.

>I don't get why people keep complaining that Federation is so exclusive. The only reason you /can't/ join it is if A) you're in another alliance or B) your guild or guild members have excessively trash talked Federation guilds (cough, BCr .-.).
The lack of released maps of your territories, not a lot of transparency in the entire operation, and a few other reasons (i think) that I don't remember right now. Yeah, BCr may have talked a little much, but hey, say what you believe, and if someone has a problem with it, they'll do something.

>Or maybe I'm just completely wrong and Federation is evil and should die.
Nah, you made some great points, and it's good to hear Fox's perspective on the entire thing.

 

Okay, well subtract all that for a moment, the feeding issues, balances, updates, Everything I said, and just consider this: a pretty clear >fact< is that allowing >>11 guilds<< to do this is WAY too many! There should just be a hard limit, that would solve this problem so easily. 11 guilds, that's like over 600 members (as opposed to hax's like 86) all on the same side warring together, and that is insurmountable by anyone outside them with the current rules and system.

And no, I don't want to make an alliance with 10 other guilds just to maybe pose a threat to y'all because then I'd be a hypocrite, and imitating the very tactics i'm deeming (and many other people would agree) as unfair. And I dont wanna join you because it would kill the fun of competition, because there would be nobody to compete against, and we'd have no real identity or any credit for map dominance since the core alliance has existed for so long. would just feel like a ride-along.


Also holy freak this thread is erupting. 3 pages in les than 4 hours??? hot topic batman

 

There's not a lot of strategy to guild wars. Might feel like you're a great tactician when you're holding all the knights and bishops, but once you've only got pawns you quickly realize you don't have many moves. People ally and team up because they're rewarded with territories (eg: federation). There shouldn't be something to limit alliances, but there needs to be something to limit the amount of assistance an alliance can provide. Guilds are a war of attrition. I've fought nearly 1000 wars (largely against very heavy defenses), and the guild that gives up should lose. We're making guilds give up even through all the assistance that they get through their alliances, and it's simply too much.

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I’ll let Goden address the rest but I’ll do this part.
There’s not actually an official application in the sense that there’s a format for it. But every time a guild messages me and wants to join, we discuss it and then start a vote on it. We don’t have an alliance thread or any place it’s officially advertised because there’s not much point to a thread when you’re purely a war alliance and plus we don’t want to deal with the negative effects of hate and drama on an alliance thread that a lot of past alliances have had to deal with.

 

But then how would a new guild have any idea that there's even an application? Personally I didn't even know you could apply into the Federation until about a month ago, I thought you guys just voted on a guild and contacted them.

 

Well brand new guilds wouldn’t be accepted anyways considering we only take in those that have proven themselves in wars. Typically the only guilds that know Federation exists are those that care about wars and know how to do them. It’s a very efficient “filter” in the sense that many of the guilds that’d be denied don’t even know we exist in the first place.

 

If you have a real issue on the fact that so many territories are held by Fed, then make your own alliance and change that. It isnt the mod's job to change the scene of a map, its the guild community. And this whole "form a new alliance and take over" concept isnt at all new, its how Fed came to be or literally any other map controlling alliance. This isnt a space to share everything with everyone, its a strategy and you need some goal, and ours is for Fed to have the map. So to end this, if you want change dont go bugging mods about it, do it yourself.

 

"I don't want to put in the work of creating an alliance because that is too hardand it is unfair that others can accomplish that"
It is absurd to me that there are still people that think an alliance that controls the map is invincible and can't be taken down.

 

Let's be honest; you go out into the real world and threaten any type of agreement circle, it's a no brainer that you're inevitably going to face pushback said groups.

Every time this argument always leads back to bitching about the inequality that the Fed creates and how "oh it stifles the potential of other guilds and creates a toxic and unfun environment where you're forced to confine to the boundaries set by the Fox and Imp overlords"

Well no shit, this happens in real life all the time, and in any environment with enough development alliances will always form and competition is shafted; whether it be in nature

Take it from a large scale and look at the world leaders. The world has the UN, and they essentially have influence over the whole world. Anything that opposes them face strict economic sanctions and usually diminished scalebacks of power to the point of what some would call oppression. Take Venezuela, Germany, and North Korea as failed attempts. Oppose a large group in power, face consequences, simple as that.

Lets go smaller and take it to a rainforest.

In a rainforest, trees grow largest over shrubs and other plantation due to their ability to harness resources efficiently and survive the longest; they dominate the environment around them and force other plants to adapt to them. They're the first thing one thinks of upon the mention of the word "Jungle" or "Forest". Yet there are other plants are there not? There are shurbs, grasses, and vines which grow around the trees. Shrubs don't grow to the size of trees because the trees don't allow them to; there's not enough sunshine, water, and minerals to go around.

So what do the shrubs do? Die and wither away whilst attempting kind of crude arms race for resources against trees?

No. They suck it up, and adapt to take what little they can get that the tree's overbearing leaves get. They live in the tree's shadows and will never be larger than a small sapling. Simply put; if you're not in a domineering position, you lose. Suck it up or wither and dry

Now lets take it even smaller. To your house pantry

Let's say you, a resident, finds cockroaches in your kitchen pantry where they started knawing on your snacks. Do you simply let this by, and allow the cockroaches to breed upon your home and desecrate your property simply because they are oppressed creatures, whom deserve life without the fear of constant death and discrimination from humankind?

No. You call exterminators or you squash them yourself.

In a domineering position as the human, why should you let those roaches live? They don't help you, and they're pests to you and your fellow licensees inhabiting the property. No person in a domineering position wants to help those who aren't unless they see direct benefit to the domineer.

Now take this all together.

Every non Fed alliance attempts repeatedly to find some sort of beggar's clemency in asking the mods over and over again to dismantle, ban, or in plainsake take down the fed because they don't give you opportunity and they oppress others and take all the resources and fun of the game for themselves.

Well news flash; that's how life works. The Fed is dominant and the Fed is strong. We have no reason to help you, and there's no reason for us to want to. The Fed is oppressive, and the Fed treats opposition as daily occurrence and routs them with no real threat to anyone inside.

But you're not gonna get anything done by whining. If you want fun or freedom from the Fed's oppression, it's never gonna happen unless you become a part of it yourself or dismantle it from the inside out.

Us 11 guilds worked for our map control, and we own it justly. We don't care how much smaller guilds are oppressed or how tyrannical we are, and you can bet you're gonna go through a million arguments and threads with no avail or fruit of your work.

Stop trying, and stop wasting our time.

 

For me, the daily opposition, is fun, it shows that there are still people willing to go up against Fed and put up a fight in that. There is no denying that Round Table have been putting forth their best effort to get rid of us and that is what I look for in competition. I just don't like the minority in some of thise guilds that do NOT want to do the work to take over. I want the Round Table to fight, I want The Revolution to fight. This conpetition is what makes guilds fun for everyone. But when people get uoset when they are losing and demand a change which will make the fundementals of guilds break, this is the issue that I have a problem with.