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Media A Note From Igbar - Our Late Moderator

Discussion in 'Wynncraft' started by SilverMirror, Apr 6, 2016.

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buukie Famous Adventurer VIP+

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I feel like all Igbar really addressed is why grinding is a pain, and quest requirements.
Which is kind of stupid, because that's what most people already complain about anyways.

buukie, Apr 6, 2016

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iivory said: ↑

I feel like all Igbar really addressed is why grinding is a pain, and quest requirements.
Which is kind of stupid, because that's what most people already complain about anyways.
Click to expand...

Though people will listen to him more since people like, trust, and know him better than the average player

los_pollitoz, Apr 6, 2016

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King Joffery said: ↑

Though people will listen to him more since people like, trust, and know him better than the average player
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's basically human nature to trust someone you know and like more than some random person that just happens to be a higher-up.

buukie, Apr 6, 2016

#43

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IgbarVonSquid™ said: ↑

I knew my Youtube comments would probably be an echo chamber, so I came on here to see if anyone had posted my video. I'm glad someone did, and I'm extra glad that @SilverMirror isn't too biased against me or Wynncraft, which has kept this thread relatively flame free. This is probably going to be my only comment on here because anymore than that and it will turn into a flame war. I'll still read any replies people have but I won't argue back against them here.

I do know you're trying to fix it, but I think you're fixing it in the wrong way. Right now all you're doing is punishing players who have waited over a year for this update and who just wanted to play Gavel when it released. Wynncraft has always had this nasty habit of saying, "We'll add this stuff in and fix it up later while we focus on other things." Gavel really tried not to do that, but the update got too big and out of hand too quickly, leaving certain areas completely lacking in content, you only have yourselves to blame.

You know what else breaks the progression system? Double xp. When double xp is active you can use it to skip a lot of the early game, so why is that okay buy my idea isn't? Wynncraft is open world, so let players have their freedom to explore it how they wish! Let them skip the beginning half of the game if they want. Putting skips on beginning sections isn't some crazy idea, games have done it before. The original Super Mario game would let you skip worlds if you found the hidden warp-zone. Dark Souls will let you skip sections of the game if you start out with a master key. Plus, all those quests in the beginning are more or less tutorial quests to introduce specific quest mechanics, but for the most part they were written by Salted 2 years ago, and they suck. If I'm skilled enough, please let me skip these awful tutorial quests! Now, if too many people are skilled enough to do it, make it harder for people to do it. Hell, if it'll suit your fancy you can put level requirements on certain areas, but if I'm level 40 and I can take down a level 70 boss, then reward me for doing so and let me skip some stuff I don't want to do!

I'm seriously hurt. "Didn't actually play the Gavel Update"? I play tested Gavel for Christ's sake! I, along with others, spent hours upon hours painstakingly testing quests, testing for bugs, giving feedback, correcting grammar and spelling... I'll wholeheartedly admit that I didn't test as much as the others did (Sci you're a god among men, and Broe you did the dirty jobs no one else wanted) but to say I never even played it is completely ignorant and absolutely insulting. If anything, it's the content team that doesn't play Wynncraft. In my time as a moderator I got to speak to many people, and most of the staff teams freely admitted they don't even play Wynncraft anymore, they just make things for it. I understand though, the time spent playing could be used to make better content, but it'd be hypocritical of you to say I never even played it.

And just because nobody else has complained doesn't mean my arguments are automatically invalid. People learn from each other, and if one person starts seeing it one way, others may start to see it, too. I'd hope the same holds true here, but who knows maybe everyone thinks I'm wrong.

Now I'd also to quickly touch on some other ideas people have had:
"Remove level requirements but have level recommendations." - Totally fine with this, as long as I have the freedom to do it how I want then you can tell me to turn back as many times as you like.
"Have level requirements but make it so quests will level you completely or at least very close to it." - Fine with this as well, a little bit of grinding isn't too bad (Look at Pokemon, for example) but having too much of it ruins the experience for everyone.
"But how would you get to level 100? You still have to grind because there's not enough xp." - The way I see it, completing all quests should be the primary objective. Once you've done that, getting to level 100 and getting the best gear and build possible should be a post game objective, for the hardcore players who want to be true completionists.

But yes, you are right this is more or less my opinion and just my ideal version of how I think Wynncraft should be. If you don't agree with me, that's fine and you can do it your way, but myself and many others would agree that the way Wynncraft does things now could hardly be considered "fun" and worth the time. Wynncraft has practically enslaved the playerbase to only play the game one way, (that being grinding is required to proceed) and because of this many people don't want to put up with it! If they try to take shortcuts (Abusing glitches to get to areas they shouldn't yet) you ban them instead of fixing the shortcut itself. And for what purpose? People don't abuse the glitches because they're jerks, they just don't want to grind! They already hate a key element of the game, so why would they even bother appealing? You're just turning them away because they're not playing the game to your expectations.

As I said at the top, if you want to reply go ahead. I'll read it but I won't fight you on it here. If you truly want to debate it you can PM me and we can discuss, though we'll probably just argue in circles so I wouldn't recommend, but the option is certainly there.

#FreeThePlayers
Click to expand...

This resonates with me.

Tapu_Fini, Apr 6, 2016

#44

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If it helps, i have posted this to the mods as well.
It is important to respond to such criticism.
From Mular5

Mular5, Apr 6, 2016

#45

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Personally i approve of his points. The game IS a total grind fest. I've stopped playing my mage because OH MY WORD THE GRINDING IS SO SHIT.

I've one time taken my level 1 to the silverfish dungeon, partied up, and went to town on it with the funds from my other characters, and 2 friends. TWO. Note that in MMORPGs, you'll want to have a team of 4 skilled people. Sometimes more.

Look, i love wynn, i love the concept of a MMORPG in minecraft, but its just not good enough.
The gavel update was very ambicious, and it turned away a lot of people. Now the only reason we're (We being me and the few friends i have still online) sticking around is for the follow-up update, praying that it could change the game and make it the glorious, gold crested update we thought gavel would be.

AetherArising, Apr 6, 2016

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All I have to say here. He said no level requirements on quests. I went to sky islands at level 1. 10 minutes. pit stop at detlas for scrolls too, and maybe items too, ez lvl 80 1hour if you want too <3

EJCrusher, Apr 6, 2016

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Let me put this out there, tanti said "sounds like" he never said igbar didn't play gavel at all.
Also at level 98 grinding is very painful, but it is in a way ok. Sure it may take you days to get 1 level for now but still you get the satisfaction of getting some thing done (and having no life :P) anyways wynncraft is still an mmorpg although the grinding does feel a bit too much you can't really argue against it, for now. (IMO)

StarDraco123, Apr 6, 2016

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I disagree on some points, of course. There's a good saying in game design which goes like this: "If a player can find a more efficient way to do something, he will do it, even if it's less fun". A player rushing to the Molten Height and finishing a quest of that level would not make the game more fun. If we were to do that, we'd actually had to add MORE grinding and more bosses. Why? Because we wouldn't be able to make fun quests like Beyond the Grave without making it so every level 1 will rush to complete it for insta level 50, as it does not require you to kill anything.

It feels like you are way, way too focused on one aspect of the game, which are quests. The game is very open-ended. Other games can manage to have no grinding but often come at a cost of being linear, or hiding their "level requirements". Look at Zelda, sure there's no grinding BUT you do need to do every dungeon one at a time, kill enemies that gets in your way while you're traveling, etc. The game is also a MMORPG, not a RPG. A big part of a MMO is that it lasts for a long time, it's not a game you play once for 12h, finish everything and never touch it again. It's a game requiring team work, trading and taking things slowly. Allowing people to just skip through everything would kill the game very quickly. I mean, why not allow Link to kill Ganon right as he starts right? He would die but people who really like the challenge would have a lot of fun dying over and over again to finish the game.

I hear a lot of people saying "I stopped playing because of grinding", but allowing you to skip half the quests (because btw, skipping quests to reach level 50 in one go would make all the lvl <50 quests stupidly easy and less fun) would make you guys quit even faster, as there would be no content. Grinding is an issue, and the more we update the game, the less there is of that. But it is not as bad as you make it seem.

You compared Wynncraft to Mario, which is... very weird. Mario is a linear platform game. One level of Mario does not equal 1 quest of Wynncraft. If anything, by playtime alone, Mario has more bosses per minutes than Wynncraft.

Something else. The game is very focused on items as well. Skipping 50 levels sounds fun right? Until you realise you are still using a level 5 weapon and can't kill anything, and are forced to go back to Ragni to grind, even more slowly than before. Quests can give items, but with the huge amount of build there is, we'd have to make every quest give 20 items to make it fair for every classes and every elements.

In my opinion, grinding is much, much less of a pain than it was before Gavel. You guys don't know, but we actually reduced the mob-kill required per level in this update. People are able to reach level 60 very easily with almost only quests, and a little bit of.. "grinding". Killing mobs isn't grinding, and it is a gameplay feature that can be fun and rewarding. What is boring is having to do this for hours and hours, which only happens in the late levels.

My idea for the game was always to make it so you have 1 quest per level, giving you a significiant amount of XP, then the little amount left needs to be reach by doing dungeons or killing mobs, in order to find new items and become more powerful. And that grinding doesn't have to be all in one go, it can be done simply by walking from one point to another and killing mobs in your way. Quests are a reward (what even is the problem with that?) the same as killing mob and getting an item is a reward, or getting 2 skill points, or being able to finally wear this great item you found a while back.

Lastly, the fact that you are talking like Wynncraft is spitting on your time makes me fairly upset. We don't add a specific progression because "lol fuck your time", but because it is, without a doubt, what is more fun. The way you talk about the game like it is the worst thing that ever existed feels like a slap on the face. All the work we've done to make fun and diverse builds, to fill up caves with loots and beautiful building is completely overshadowed because the game doesn't go at the pace you'd like. Have you guys ever thought that maybe the game is less fun now because you've played too much of it? Maybe you've outgrown the genre. We can't expect to keep the same playerbase with one game for years, and sometimes it might be better for some of you to just let it go.

Yea, fuck grinding for sure, but we do not have the resources to create content as fast as you guys consume them. We're getting there, and already the next update will reduce grinding even more.

EDIT: Oh yea, there is a bit too much bosses in the Gavel quest, that I can agree.

Salted, Apr 6, 2016

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IgbarVonSquid™ said: ↑

I knew my Youtube comments would probably be an echo chamber, so I came on here to see if anyone had posted my video. I'm glad someone did, and I'm extra glad that @SilverMirror isn't too biased against me or Wynncraft, which has kept this thread relatively flame free. This is probably going to be my only comment on here because anymore than that and it will turn into a flame war. I'll still read any replies people have but I won't argue back against them here.

I do know you're trying to fix it, but I think you're fixing it in the wrong way. Right now all you're doing is punishing players who have waited over a year for this update and who just wanted to play Gavel when it released. Wynncraft has always had this nasty habit of saying, "We'll add this stuff in and fix it up later while we focus on other things." Gavel really tried not to do that, but the update got too big and out of hand too quickly, leaving certain areas completely lacking in content, you only have yourselves to blame.

You know what else breaks the progression system? Double xp. When double xp is active you can use it to skip a lot of the early game, so why is that okay buy my idea isn't? Wynncraft is open world, so let players have their freedom to explore it how they wish! Let them skip the beginning half of the game if they want. Putting skips on beginning sections isn't some crazy idea, games have done it before. The original Super Mario game would let you skip worlds if you found the hidden warp-zone. Dark Souls will let you skip sections of the game if you start out with a master key. Plus, all those quests in the beginning are more or less tutorial quests to introduce specific quest mechanics, but for the most part they were written by Salted 2 years ago, and they suck. If I'm skilled enough, please let me skip these awful tutorial quests! Now, if too many people are skilled enough to do it, make it harder for people to do it. Hell, if it'll suit your fancy you can put level requirements on certain areas, but if I'm level 40 and I can take down a level 70 boss, then reward me for doing so and let me skip some stuff I don't want to do!

I'm seriously hurt. "Didn't actually play the Gavel Update"? I play tested Gavel for Christ's sake! I, along with others, spent hours upon hours painstakingly testing quests, testing for bugs, giving feedback, correcting grammar and spelling... I'll wholeheartedly admit that I didn't test as much as the others did (Sci you're a god among men, and Broe you did the dirty jobs no one else wanted) but to say I never even played it is completely ignorant and absolutely insulting. If anything, it's the content team that doesn't play Wynncraft. In my time as a moderator I got to speak to many people, and most of the staff teams freely admitted they don't even play Wynncraft anymore, they just make things for it. I understand though, the time spent playing could be used to make better content, but it'd be hypocritical of you to say I never even played it.

And just because nobody else has complained doesn't mean my arguments are automatically invalid. People learn from each other, and if one person starts seeing it one way, others may start to see it, too. I'd hope the same holds true here, but who knows maybe everyone thinks I'm wrong.

Now I'd also to quickly touch on some other ideas people have had:
"Remove level requirements but have level recommendations." - Totally fine with this, as long as I have the freedom to do it how I want then you can tell me to turn back as many times as you like.
"Have level requirements but make it so quests will level you completely or at least very close to it." - Fine with this as well, a little bit of grinding isn't too bad (Look at Pokemon, for example) but having too much of it ruins the experience for everyone.
"But how would you get to level 100? You still have to grind because there's not enough xp." - The way I see it, completing all quests should be the primary objective. Once you've done that, getting to level 100 and getting the best gear and build possible should be a post game objective, for the hardcore players who want to be true completionists.

But yes, you are right this is more or less my opinion and just my ideal version of how I think Wynncraft should be. If you don't agree with me, that's fine and you can do it your way, but myself and many others would agree that the way Wynncraft does things now could hardly be considered "fun" and worth the time. Wynncraft has practically enslaved the playerbase to only play the game one way, (that being grinding is required to proceed) and because of this many people don't want to put up with it! If they try to take shortcuts (Abusing glitches to get to areas they shouldn't yet) you ban them instead of fixing the shortcut itself. And for what purpose? People don't abuse the glitches because they're jerks, they just don't want to grind! They already hate a key element of the game, so why would they even bother appealing? You're just turning them away because they're not playing the game to your expectations.

As I said at the top, if you want to reply go ahead. I'll read it but I won't fight you on it here. If you truly want to debate it you can PM me and we can discuss, though we'll probably just argue in circles so I wouldn't recommend, but the option is certainly there.

#FreeThePlayers
Click to expand...

I have an idea that could be amazing, and I could make it work without a quest... I remember that being one of your main concerns with Wynncraft.

Needless to say, the boss utilizes the environment around it, and it uses a little mechanic kind of thing in order to defeat it. Although, attacking it will be a bit like the Rise of Quarton boss, it will be very different, due to a couple other variables with it.

Your video actually made me think up a lot of cool ideas for quests, and all that stuff. And maybe it could be a start, to a change caused by your video.

I'm not saying the idea will be 100% accepted, because it has to kind of fall under their vision, or maybe it could broaden their horizons to new ideas. I'm confident though that it'll be a big thing if I get to make it... seeing as how it's at least a decently cool idea.

Also, as I stated in my post above

Post quoted here:

CuddleDragonHoke said: ↑

Oh... I have an idea for a boss, that, if I write it down correctly, could pass Rise of Quarton's boss in originality...

The quest I have in mind has a little theme that goes through the entire quest... and the boss utilizes this said theme in the battle. It'll be a similar boss to quarton... but it'll be different in the sense that the mechanics are different... I would just have to make it a certain way, pitch the idea, and hope that you guys take it, or find a way to talk to salted, and Grian about how it could be implimented... I just need time to get an example of how it'd work, such as a video, or other forms of media... :3
Click to expand...

I stated that this boss will utilize a mechanic that is utilized within the quest that you go through to get to it, maybe it could line up to having a similar mechanic in a future province, or maybe being in some extensions to Gavel. It's an idea that I have taken from my very own Airadon world, that I plan to actually get working on, but I have had to restart it in a way *cries* Anyways, it's an idea, from that project, and I see it being a possible bright future for quests, maybe get Grian, Salted, and Jumla, to expand their vision a little bit more, add some amazing mechanics, that can be utilized around the wynncraft world, to find secrets, or to find some other cool things. That's something that could help make wynncraft gey something more in my eyes, sure, we don't want to over complicate Wynncraft, but we can make sure that the mechanics are limited to some areas, or maybe some other things. It's an idea that I've been working on for a while. And I just hope that they get some recognition, or at least some responses saying they could comprimise with. I'm trying to put together some examples of this idea... and your video actually inspired me to look outside the box. ;)

TurtleTheSeawing, Apr 6, 2016

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Salted said: ↑

I mean, why not allow Link to kill Ganon right as he starts right?
Click to expand...

Because I don't enjoy dying

captainganon, Apr 6, 2016

#51

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I personally think there should be more ways to get xp. Right now there are two main ways of getting xp, which is 1. Quests, and 2. Grinding/killing mobs. That's really limited, and you have to be pretty single-minded to enjoy that. It's the same shit over and over again. With more ways of getting xp, people should level up faster. Examples: discovering locations, finding hidden items around the map, discovering secrets, doing certain actions, etc.

Looking back on this, it is a pretty shit suggestion, but hopefully someone can find a way to make it decent.

not bagged milk, Apr 6, 2016

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The grinding mechanics in mmorpgs in particular are solely in place to keep players playing to actually have a working multiplayer social sphere. Otherwise the fear is people will just knuckle down and play through the game in a couple of days and never come back without thinking twice. Its not implemented to be fun, its there because its a cheap way to sustain the main selling point of theses titles. Not to say its ABSOLUTELY necassary, you can certainly push content that gives the game somewhat more replayability(Secrets, classes/builds,etc.) so long as you consider the act of basic acts entertainment(Which some people actually do, everyone is built differently for that.).

Chocobutter, Apr 6, 2016

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Watching the boss fight in this video, damn it looks fun. Would be cool to add dodging and backing up bosses to wynncraft.

MagicGum, Apr 6, 2016

#54
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Saturn said: ↑

doing certain actions, etc..
Click to expand...

Missions give exp, bad example, but it does exist already

McMasterx, Apr 6, 2016

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Belgarath said: ↑

Missions give exp, bad example, but it does exist already
Click to expand...

I meant something more along the lines of the "Help Wenja Missions" from Far Cry Primal, where you are randomly called to help people.

not bagged milk, Apr 6, 2016

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Salted said: ↑

I disagree on some points, of course. There's a good saying in game design which goes like this: "If a player can find a more efficient way to do something, he will do it, even if it's less fun". A player rushing to the Molten Height and finishing a quest of that level would not make the game more fun. If we were to do that, we'd actually had to add MORE grinding and more bosses. Why? Because we wouldn't be able to make fun quests like Beyond the Grave without making it so every level 1 will rush to complete it for insta level 50, as it does not require you to kill anything.

It feels like you are way, way too focused on one aspect of the game, which are quests. The game is very open-ended. Other games can manage to have no grinding but often come at a cost of being linear, or hiding their "level requirements". Look at Zelda, sure there's no grinding BUT you do need to do every dungeon one at a time, kill enemies that gets in your way while you're traveling, etc. The game is also a MMORPG, not a RPG. A big part of a MMO is that it lasts for a long time, it's not a game you play once for 12h, finish everything and never touch it again. It's a game requiring team work, trading and taking things slowly. Allowing people to just skip through everything would kill the game very quickly. I mean, why not allow Link to kill Ganon right as he starts right? He would die but people who really like the challenge would have a lot of fun dying over and over again to finish the game.

I hear a lot of people saying "I stopped playing because of grinding", but allowing you to skip half the quests (because btw, skipping quests to reach level 50 in one go would make all the lvl <50 quests stupidly easy and less fun) would make you guys quit even faster, as there would be no content. Grinding is an issue, and the more we update the game, the less there is of that. But it is not as bad as you make it seem.

You compared Wynncraft to Mario, which is... very weird. Mario is a linear platform game. One level of Mario does not equal 1 quest of Wynncraft. If anything, by playtime alone, Mario has more bosses per minutes than Wynncraft.

Something else. The game is very focused on items as well. Skipping 50 levels sounds fun right? Until you realise you are still using a level 5 weapon and can't kill anything, and are forced to go back to Ragni to grind, even more slowly than before. Quests can give items, but with the huge amount of build there is, we'd have to make every quest give 20 items to make it fair for every classes and every elements.

In my opinion, grinding is much, much less of a pain than it was before Gavel. You guys don't know, but we actually reduced the mob-kill required per level in this update. People are able to reach level 60 very easily with almost only quests, and a little bit of.. "grinding". Killing mobs isn't grinding, and it is a gameplay feature that can be fun and rewarding. What is boring is having to do this for hours and hours, which only happens in the late levels.

My idea for the game was always to make it so you have 1 quest per level, giving you a significiant amount of XP, then the little amount left needs to be reach by doing dungeons or killing mobs, in order to find new items and become more powerful. And that grinding doesn't have to be all in one go, it can be done simply by walking from one point to another and killing mobs in your way. Quests are a reward (what even is the problem with that?) the same as killing mob and getting an item is a reward, or getting 2 skill points, or being able to finally wear this great item you found a while back.

Lastly, the fact that you are talking like Wynncraft is spitting on your time makes me fairly upset. We don't add a specific progression because "lol fuck your time", but because it is, without a doubt, what is more fun. The way you talk about the game like it is the worst thing that ever existed feels like a slap on the face. All the work we've done to make fun and diverse builds, to fill up caves with loots and beautiful building is completely overshadowed because the game doesn't go at the pace you'd like. Have you guys ever thought that maybe the game is less fun now because you've played too much of it? Maybe you've outgrown the genre. We can't expect to keep the same playerbase with one game for years, and sometimes it might be better for some of you to just let it go.

Yea, fuck grinding for sure, but we do not have the resources to create content as fast as you guys consume them. We're getting there, and already the next update will reduce grinding even more.

EDIT: Oh yea, there is a bit too much bosses in the Gavel quest, that I can agree.
Click to expand...

Well said!

Kaelan~, Apr 6, 2016

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Saturn said: ↑

I personally think there should be more ways to get xp. Right now there are two main ways of getting xp, which is 1. Quests, and 2. Grinding/killing mobs. That's really limited, and you have to be pretty single-minded to enjoy that. It's the same shit over and over again. With more ways of getting xp, people should level up faster. Examples: discovering locations, finding hidden items around the map, discovering secrets, doing certain actions, etc.

Looking back on this, it is a pretty shit suggestion, but hopefully someone can find a way to make it decent.
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I like this idea. Xenoblade Chronicles was really cool because of this. It had a massive world which meant there was a lot to explore. And every time you discovered a new area, experience. New landmark? More experience. Secret area? Tons of experience! Maybe it wouldn't be on that scale for Wynncraft but, it'd be cool if you got experience for finding secret rooms where we usually put loot chests, and other stuff like that.

Tantibus, Apr 6, 2016

#58

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Tantibus said: ↑

I like this idea. Xenoblade Chronicles was really cool because of this. It had a massive world which meant there was a lot to explore. And every time you discovered a new area, experience. New landmark? More experience. Secret area? Tons of experience! Maybe it wouldn't be on that scale for Wynncraft but, it'd be cool if you got experience for finding secret rooms where we usually put loot chests, and other stuff like that.
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I think the T4 chest in Molten heights is a pretty good example of these "secret areas"

Cruuk, Apr 6, 2016

#59
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Salted said: ↑

Something else. The game is very focused on items as well. Skipping 50 levels sounds fun right? Until you realise you are still using a level 5 weapon and can't kill anything, and are forced to go back to Ragni to grind, even more slowly than before. Quests can give items, but with the huge amount of build there is, we'd have to make every quest give 20 items to make it fair for every classes and every elements.
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Oh wow. I didn't think about that point.

Tapu_Fini, Apr 6, 2016

#60

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