Nullification - Discussion

You went ahead and made an ultra tank build and wonder why it got shit damage there’s your reason

Where this dagger shine is that you can hv 1.5x your normal rainbow defense even if you build offensively, with libra and some shit u can easily do 7k spin costing 2 mana, and that’s already a lot. Don’t expect great damage from tank dagger.

Bare in mind that wynncraft’s classes does not lock you into rolls, tank can exist in assassins. While it’s not effective in PvP due to obviously everyone like rainbow defenses, PvP is *never* a main point of balance. Wynncraft is a PvE centric game and will remain that way. Rainbow weapon is extremely effective in stuff like LI exploiting elemental weaknesses. And due to the low req u can almost definitely carry an extra weapon for times of need when u face rainbow def bosses.

All in all, this dagger is great, but if you can’t get out of the traditional mindset of class builds then you will never enjoy this and Wynncraft will only get even more boring

 

All right yeah I see your point now

 

You can still try to fix it by making items that are supposed to be pure tank have decent damage output.

Its tanking is great but its an assassin weapon , assassin isn't great at tanking (which is also why most of its mythic daggers are more damage focused) , as an assassin tank you just get denied by any ranged attack , you simply have nothing to do , and while being good at close range with such a low damage output no matter how strong ur defense is odds are the other enemy will kill you before you can kill them because even a bit of elemental defense blocks the damage of this weapon almost completely .

In addition to that most end game bosses don't have elemental weakness and are rather immune to all elements which results in me having 100-300 damage spin attacks on qira.

In pvp most players have either insane damage or insane defense , to insane defense u wont do anything and any poison/neutral weapon will eventually take u out
insane damage u still wont do much to and will take you out even with ur defense fairly easily.

overall this weapon might have worked as a wand or a spear but no its a dagger , assassin with low damage is simply bad and the facts are that the damage on this dagger is pretty darn low.

having this dagger as a secondary will be a waste because u only get the defense when holding it and if you are not using it for attacking than when will you ever be holding it in actual battle?

usually a mobs elemental defense is higher than his elemental weakness from my experience. (especially in end game bosses)

When I heard about an elemental mythic dagger I thought you would go with the obvious weapon and do something similar to collapse (high elemental damage , meh defense)
but no you went with the unique route which I respect , that makes the game more fun to play , but the problem is that this route is not common for a reason , tank doesnt suit assassin well so a weapon that might look great on paper because you can think about it being used in the way warrior or mage can use such a tank weapon will actually suck in game , hence my suggestion to buff the damage to make it suit assassin's playstyle more . if you give a class a weapon that goes against how the class is meant to be played it doesn't just have to be good , it has to be amazing to make up for that and that's where the item team failed with a lot of items(you can look at inferno before the buff as an example) .

 

I dont think your listening to what they're saying

 

This is not the only build I have tried its simply the one I found most effective for reasons I explained in a few previous replies .
I have had a build with 1k more dps than this one and 50% mana reduction with some decent mana regen and it still felt lacking in damage seeing as I wasn't even that amazingly tanky with said build .
the build I've linked here matches with everything in the dagger , so I assume that's how its meant to be played and I'm pointing out the flaw which is that no matter how great a tank you are having such horrible damage will mean you will have a very hard time defeating any boss or player.

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I am listening I might have missunderstood

 

My first class was a rainbow assassin, so this one makes alot of sense to me. I was able to kill bosses pretty well with my rainbow assassin, but I always died. That's why I think they based the dagger on rainbow defense, it fixes this problem

 

Assassin was never a great tank... until this dagger came along. All you are asking for is for us to make items that suit players, suit you, that’s not how it works. If that was the case we would have made nullification a spear and collapse a dagger to suit the mindset of “oh warrior is a tank assassin is glass cannon” but no. Here in item team we make stuff that’s effective but require player to think how to use it effectively, we don’t present a solution to you, we present you a question.

Sit down and critically think about this objectively, think outside of the traditional mindset of assassin mythics need to do shit tons of damage, is this dagger weak? Being the tank variant of mythics, it’s damage comparison is basically the same if not more than the other tank mythics of other classes while giving basically same if not more form of tankiness in the form of elem def.

If damage is all it matters then dps always wins, but it isn’t. It exist knowing assassin’s flaws in tanking to make up for it. Instead of shoehorning assassin’s single playstyle we expanded it. And that’s how basically all the new four mythics works, non-conventional playstyle u were not expecting stuck into the most generic elemental combo u were expecting

 

you still die tho , ur not invincible even with my build which is pure defense I couldn't survive qira without potions which is fine IF i didn't have such low damage that could barely damage her.

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as i said

Also you are missing my point , I dont want you to change the dagger fully and make it an offensive dagger , I'm suggesting that you up the damage a bit just so it can do enough damage to get by not to kill its enemies in seconds.

 

If we up the damage a bit it would be cutting awfully close to nirvana, it’s already awfully close to nirvana, 7k spin with 2 mana cost while nirvana is 8k spin 2 mana cost on a tank build. Factor in life steal and mana steal, you can’t get more damage then this without it being brokenly op

And no, being rainbow damage and being cockblocked by qira is not a justification for it to hv a higher damage. PvB is not the only thing in factor, and the majority of mobs in Wynn hv elemental weakness that u can equally exploit, while you as end game player has nothing else better to do right now we all know that future expansions coming 300 years later will add more end game content namely the giant black thing on the map. Moreover, tank builds and tank weapons are not solo boss killers, in general, knowing how to cooperate with other players are a must for tanks and supports to exist due to how boss drops works, but future rework might change that no guarantee, and one day being a piece of wall may prove to be advantageous.

Back on track, spin stun + tankiness on assassin is great in team fights pair with offensive builds. You cannot expect to be an immortal god that can still solo bosses only slower than other builds, assassin or not

Lastly a tip, contrary to popular beliefs, around half of qira’s damage is actually neutral, try to put more in defense if u wanna take less damage or agility to just cheese everything

 

Qira isn't the only end game boss that exists , I tried Li (mainly cybel as the rest of the bosses are quite easy) and I tried wybel both barely take any damage from me . pvb is not the only factor but it sure is a big factor , in a perfect world where going together as groups and having a tank a support and a damage dealer works great and happens a lot this weapon could be good in taking down bosses with groups but the reality of wynncraft is that nearly every end game player prefers to be able to solo everything and this dagger doesn't work as well . items are supposed to be balanced about what the game is and not about what it should be . mythics are end game weapons , at end game u barely pvm(player versus minion/mob) you mainly fight bosses and other players which is why they are the 2 most important factors for this weapon.

I heard the same arguemant about nirvana being made with weathered ,weathered is way faster and can get more damage with same mana while having plenty of agility why should I use nirvana
thing is nirvana is pure water damage , which means concentration is super effective on it making it able to reach 17k spins which is way higher than a slightly buffed nul can ever reach.

but If I go fully into defense how can I have sp for the high damage spell spam build u mentioned earlier which is exactly the problem , If you go full tank your damage is too low to be viable on the battlefield and if you go with damage/spell spam you are just better off using another weapon.

 

And if you don't like that playstyle just sell it and buy another weapon

 

This has nothing to do with the topic I'm not trying to get it buffed so it suits my playstyle I'm trying to get it buffed because I believe its not on par with the rest of the mythic daggers

 

It’s not on par becoz it’s not the same comparison as simple as that, is like comparing getting 80 marks on history to a guy getting 90 marks on science, does it make the science guy better than the history guy? No, coz they main different things

Some might say at end game all you do is kill villagers and make builds to make yourself feel better. Sorry if this doesn’t do great in both in your opinion. But it’s not really how this works. In fact this is not a perfect world, but if everyone only think of soloing then a bunch more of tank items and support items will never see use. And in fact they don’t due to how the game *currently* works. But we all know that’s not how it should be and it should be changed, so do we mean we just make items for an imperfect and flawed game, or we make items and then fix the game? The item team is doing more than just items, we are actively participating in improving player especially end game experience, coz we are all a bunch of actual game veterans. So you can bet we can make things happen. That said, in the mean time, let’s say you get into a team fight, this dagger still allow you to do sufficient damage to get the boss drop unlike most other extreme tank or support weapons, and that’s already plenty.

Also mind you, all the new mythics including null have been play tested with some mediocre builds in different scenario, all are performing as how they are designed. So if you want to twist it’s design and use it somewhere ineffective then complain about it then I suggest you try roller skate with a mountain shoe coz that’s basically the same thing.

Again, if you want to talk damage and compare it to other mythics then you are already using this wrong.

 

it might be harder to compare than usual, but everything can be compared.

all the builds I have been suggested so far by people on this thread , even you were builds that are supposed to make this dagger have good damage , but didn't u say countless times its supposed to be a tank dagger and not a damaging one? I have made more than one build , dont think I just came here and started complaining cuz my build sucks . I tried to have good elemental damage , I tried high mana , and this one is me trying high defense which is according to you , how the dagger is meant to be played , and yes I found it to work the best of the other types of builds but the thing is as I have said countless times that high defense doesnt make up for shit damage and since the item team as far as i know cant change actual game mechanics you can build items around the system but not change it , its great that you test the mythics before putting them in the game but that doesnt mean they will always be 100% balanced infact nothing ever is 100% balanced but we can try our best to make them as close to the perfect balance as we can and keep improving them because while the item team is made of vet players it doesn't mean they can never be wrong.

damage and defense can be compared , if they couldn't be compared how could we say if anything in the game actually is even somewhat balanced .

to me it seems that you guys and I dont mean to offend at all , just can't admit that you might have been somewhat wrong in the making of this specific item because I'm not the only one who thinks it should get a damage boost or if not a damage boost at least some kind of a buff even a defensive one might push it out of the under powered zone.

 

Item team does more than you think, in fact, the item team is the sole reason the heal change even get started, with the team comes up with the equation and I personally did 3 spreadsheets to get it approved and made it in game. Be it there is an oversight in ally heal system that we missed, we do intend to fix it.

But I guess that also act as an example that we make mistakes, item team is not a bunch of arrogant pricks that only shit on criticism, we reach out to community for feedbacks and suggestions and take them into consideration. However, with 520 max life steal (2nd best is dagger in the game beside grimtrap) and 3/4 mana steal null adapt a hybrid playstyle, add in courage or curse along with 65% max elem def per element it has excellent support tank hybrid capability exceeding, honestly, anything in the game with this sort of playstyle. I used damage as a reference in my previous comments coz that’s wt u were hell bent on, not mine.

Maybe you are right, maybe one of us is indeed unwilling to admit he is wrong. But null is not underpowered at its own right, and even it pains a lot of people that the long awaited rainbow dagger is a defensive one, clearly a lot of them also can’t argue against the fact that it’s damn good at doing wt it does.

Further argument is futile since it’s clearly shown that u r not persuaded by my explaination, and I’m not moved by your attempt to get it buffed. So let’s drop it here for now and I will go get breakfast and you can wrap this up with a cool antithesis if you want.

 

meh I will pass we have each made our point very clear and there isn't much to add .

 

Based on what @SilverMirror has been suggesting I made a more hybrid oriented build with defensive and offensive capabilities. So far the nullification builds have been utilizing Gravity and a fully defensive structure with limited damage, which renders the weapon quite useless.

https://wynndata.tk/s/o3SJiq

Third Eye for necessary mana regeneration and useful defense % bonus
Libra for elemental damage % boost and raw elemental defense
Gemini for further raw elemental defense and defense % bonus
Capricorn for mana regeneration and other bonuses (Agility especially useful)

Prism for raw elemental defense and skill points
Moon Pool for mana regeneration
Prowess for skill points and minimal hp
Diamond Fusion for skill points and minimal defense

Overall with decent rolls on items you'll easily manage 550+ defense in each element, which is already a considerable amount. In addition, the build features around 90-100 agility which acts amazing in conjunction with the elemental defense.

For spells you have 9/4s mana regeneration and 90-100 intelligence, more than enough for a non-water assassin. Although it looks as if spin attack deals insignificant damage (6,886), multihit actually deals a decent amount at 14.4k. Compared to Freedom, which is one of the most popular rainbow weapons, you can arguably deal a similar amount with the vanish + multihit + midair spin attack combo. Not to mention that the play style will be far less riskier than that of a Freedom user, since you can utilize melee damage up close and 520 life steal.

If you get the chance try out my idea @Kraby and let me know if it works; I've essentially made a defensive freedom for assassin.

 

Basically a mythic with the power of unique :)
Except for the lifesteal, maybe
Or I just dislike tanky stuff lol

 

the third one; it still deals almost twice the damage of the closest unique analogue, Yverlian Blade, without factoring armor

 

I have a build very similar to this one I'm using rn
i just use clockwork instead of prowess and morph stardust instead of third eye
except for that identical , damage is pretty meh I still do like 50 damage or so a hit to qira(when I use the water powder special a bit more) and defense is maybe a bit above average
but the thing is such a build will work so much better with nirvana or weathered (specifically those 2 because this build has a lot of agi/intl) which won't just do a lot more damage but also have their own unique thing (by that I mean the walk speed of weathered and the concetration/mana regen of nirvana) which will more than make up for the less defense they will have making it not worth it to use this dagger over them because this build simply suits a water/air weapon more than a multi elemental one.