SPOILER Moral Ambiguity Doesn’t Work in Wynn

Cthulhu isn't evil, though. Cthulhu is framed as evil because humans perceived him as evil, just as you can perceive DB's actions as evil. It doesn't change that Cthulhu & DB are amoral.

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yeah this is just wrong though.

 

Feels like we're going in circles a bit here since neither of us are willing to budge, so agree to disagree? Whether the beasts are truly amoral or not, we can all at least agree the in-game depiction could use some work.

 

You can't be "as amoral as". You're just amoral. There is no gradient of amorality like there is a gradient of morality.

Light literally established itself across all of Gavel, and spread it's influence to the "much weaker" people of Gavel. One effort it made was the Light literally spreading through Gavel as a religious

I HAVE STATED MULTIPLE TIMES THAT I DO NOT THINK IT IS.

You DO realize the Light is in all of Gavel, it's just most concentrated in the Light Forests. It already DID spread to all of Gavel.

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Yeah. I already said this. Like five times.

 

I'm gonna be real it feels like absolutely no one is getting the point, we already established all our complaints and maddie already gave all her solutions, honestly this thread should get locked, it accomplished it's purpose, now we just need to wait for the ideas to be actually improved upon in-game

 

this. I understand the complaints, I agree with them. I have stated I want to improve the presentation. The fact they are amoral is inarguable though, that is just how the game's universe is-- they're so far above mortals that mortal concepts are meaningless to them, just as an ascended Elder God might abandon emotions or language because they are meaningless ideas and concepts that have no inherent existence.

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That is just a fact of the story.

 

You literally referenced the Runic civilization in Gavel to make the point that the Light could have possibly harmed that civilization. So that way you could argue that the Light does indeed harm people outside of the Light emissaries. But that’s not in-game though.

You were also stating that:

Yet all we know in game from the Cancereater is that the Darkness was present in the SE before the Final Moments Secret Discovery. It says absolutely nothing about their quality of life there or if it would have been better under the Light. Nothing else in game does. And given that the Olm were wiped out of the SE by the Darkness, it doesn’t paint a rosy picture for them. But instead you just blame the Olm for moving into the SE to begin with rather than how the Darkness treated them.

So clearly the Light treats the native inhabitants of the overworld better than the Darkness does.

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All that being said, I’ll give this a rest then.

 

I brought this up to say that we don't know what the Light has done in the past, because the entirety of the story isn't in game. I threw it out there to give an example of a potential. The argument isn't about the Rune Civilization, but that our lack of knowledge about a fair bit of history means we cannot really use what information we have that's drip-fed by Orphion and his followers to extrapolate it to all of time.

It sure does, and? They're both still amoral. You arguing that "well, living under this guy is a better quality of life" doesn't change that Orphion isnt moral and DB isn't immoral

 

Y'all are saying this: "All I see is all that is needed to deduce the truth; if I don't see it, it can't be important information."

correlation does not imply causation moment

you out here quoting me, you should quote this as well:

 

Where does Fruma fit into all this

 

iirc there were some spikes shown in RoL III, however I don't think they are in the main map

A forest is better for humanity than a desert. Doesn't mean it cares for them any more than the other.

 

I know very little about the lore but I refuse to believe that Orphion is anything less than a good boy.

 

as revealed in the Chrysalis Part II, the fruman queen is actually an incarnation of the War Beast Ascendant, so probably fruma is near the Nether

 

Fruma beast

 

Honestly, from all the asnwers here I feel like what Wynn needs is a Prophecy dungeon moment
For those who don’t know, in the game Destiny 2, the story follows a VERY similar pattern of starting off with the whole “light good, darkness evil” schtick before over time turning that framing on its head and showing both forces as neutral and important in the balance of the universe

The main inflection point where this starts to happen is during the Season of Arrivals, where the main force of darkness arrives in a bunch of pyramid ships, so hoping to get some information we ask a bunch of sentient eldritch observers called the Nine(long story) “what is the nature of the dark?”

The result is an EXTREMELY trippy 40 minute long experience where we’re basically asked to balance both the light and the dark through the mechanics of the dungeon itself, as well as being shown potential futures through the environment design and lore.

One of the biggest takeaways from the dungeon, though, is that too much of either light or dark is extremely bad for the universe at large; light is a force for growth and change, but without darkness, a force that’s effectively sentient entropy, the universe eventually becomes a blinding wasteland of eternally shifting sands, while too much of the darkness creates an endless static void.

I think Wynn could use a similar inflection point, in a quest or a dungeon or something, showing exactly how too much of both light or darkness is bad for the world, as well as more major light-based enemies that aren’t controlled by the darkness in some form or another

 

Dern beast is like “oH iM nOt ImOrAl BeCaUsE aCtIoNs ArE rElAtIvE aNd FoR mE iTs nOt EvIl tO kIlL iNoCeNt lIvEs CuZ iM cOoL lIkE tHaT”


Technically it’s the same for orphion too

 

Darkness does have a monolith like the one in Lutho btw, there is a darkness monolith in void valley. (which could have been placed there to counteract Lutho's monolith)

 

Dark Obelisk unironically has no lore

Like none of us on the CT knows why we put it there or care to explain. Its just there.

 

Honestly, Void Valley has a lot of wasted potential in my opinion. It's such a small area and yet it has so many interesting things like the weird bulbous growths, the dark obelisk, the strange mobs, and, of course, the void holes. You only have to walk a few blocks through the place during A Journey Further before reaching the Eldritch Outlook, which is a bummer because the trail could've been made a lot longer. Plus, it could've had unique pathways utilizing the void holes for traversal.

Seeing that the obelisk has no lore leads me to believe that the Void Valley was an afterthought.

 

It would be awesome if it was replaced with something cooler or more significant one day, maybe a hive of some dark creatures like Obsessors or something. Maybe a big underground cave complex full of fucked up creatures

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Agreed. Also, I would love to see more of the blue vines, if not replacing the orange ones entirely. It's all about void holes and TNA is basically entirely blue, and honestly I think the blue looks more mysterious, interesting, and unique. Void Valley is kinda just... there. It doesn't have a lot going for it tbh.

 

Gameplay wise I think it’s fine. AJF is kinda long as it is, so idk how I’d feel if there were more void puzzles.

Plus not everything in Wynn needs lore anyway.