Why I Think Wynncraft Is A Better Mmorpg Than Other Games

The point was you haven't really focused on what other possible "exploitation" methods that Wynn does to its CT members other than their free voluntary work and just the fact that you're focused one the broad definition of the word. If you want to consider it exploitation, sure. But what is the harm being done?

Woops.

 

making money off of other people's uncompensated labor is a form of exploitation lol, there's not much more to it than that. if you disagree then i'm sure there's lots of businesses in your area that would love to sign you on for a wage of $0

i will try to make this as explicit as possible: wynncraft creates its CT team out of a group of passionate young adults; the makeup of the team is due mostly to individual self-selection, the nature of the team and its goals, and the overall demographic of wynncraft itself. thanks to a combination of genuine passion and age/inexperience, CT members are thus likely to either misunderstand or undersell the value of their own labor, or simply not care that they are giving away something significant for no benefit. this places wynncraft in a position where they can extract the value of these volunteers to create and benefit from a for-profit video game without ever needing to pay them. the CT is providing resources at their own expense to an organization willingly and knowingly profiting from them, without offering fair compensation in return. this is exploitation on the part of wynncraft.

 

I totally understand and agree with your definition of labor exploitation and how it applies to Wynncraft, but what I'm not getting is how exactly this definition is tied to a moral argument, other than the archaic connotation of the word itself. While the word "exploitation" in our society holds an obvious negative tone, that does not mean that the word itself holds any moral authority. Just slapping the label "exploitation" onto the actions of the business and the volunteers is not enough to levy moral judgement onto the situation, and does not make for a convincing argument. You have explained your position clearly and given an explanation, but you have not explained WHY your explanation holds moral significance. As I said, simply labeling something as exploitation is not enough to also label it as immoral, unless you explicitly define exploitation itself to be immoral, which would require its own well-reasoned philosophical argument.

 

I do agree that ideally (and even if only out of principle), they should be compensated. Or at least offered the option. I wouldn't use the word exploitation, since that implies a lot more than just no salary. However there's also the problem that it's just not financially feasible. Wynncraft needed to add a new subscription service to cover the costs of servers alone, I don't think the owners could afford to pay the CT without making the entire game way more expensive. Personally, given the free hours and such, I don't think it's a problem nearly big enough to warrant branding it exploitation.

 

what the fuck? genuinely what the fuck are you saying? what is this post. what the fuck are you talking about.

are you saying exploitation is morally okay? are you telling me you agree that wynncraft is exploiting people for free labor, but that i need to explain WHY exploitation is bad? did i wake up in a parallel universe where words don't mean anything anymore? please read the definition of the word exploitation:



unfairly taking advantage of people for their labor is bad, and wrong, and not morally justifiable. if this EXTREMELY BASELINE tenet of "BEING A DECENT PERSON" is something you don't agree on, i cannot communicate with you in any meaningful way.

it really doesn't - exploitation can refer to many different things of different severity. i think you have a misunderstanding of the word's definition and my use of it

if wynncraft's finances are such that it cannot possibly exist without relying on unpaid labor, then it should either restructure itself or stop being a business and instead exist as a collective volunteer collaboration

 

i aint readin alla that !!!

 

just kidding i read it i actually agree wynncraft does have something that helps it stand out from even the largest MMOs thank you wxlhf

 

This here is the key point behind my (far too philosophical, now that I look back at it) argument. You offer an extremely broad definition of exploitation and then proceed to assume that everything under this broad definition is immoral. If you use the first definition according to google, it implies, purely by the use of the word "unfairly," that exploitation is immoral. However, you have not provided an explanation for how exactly Wynncraft fits the "unfair" criteria. Take a similar example, a twitch streamer accepts a donation from a viewer. The viewer gives up a resource of theirs with the expectation and understanding that they will not be compensated in any significant way for their actions. Is it "unfair" for the streamer to accept the donation? Is it "wrong" for the viewer to have given it? Is it "unfair" for Wynncraft to accept the donation of time and effort from the CT? Is it "wrong" for the members of the CT to donate those precious resources of theirs, even if they do so with full knowledge and acceptance of the fact that they will not be financially compensated? Again, simply using a broad, unspecified definition of the word exploitation, and then acting like that broad definition is inherently the same thing as the google definition, which has it's own constraints as to what can be declared "exploitation" is a leap in logic, and meaningless assumption. Unless you can prove to me that Wynncraft fits the "unfair" criteria, you cannot say it fits google's definition of exploitation, and unless you prove to me that your broader definition of exploitation:

is inherently "unfair," then, once again, you cannot say that Wynncraft is immoral for being classified as such.

I know this is a bit technical, but the entire point here is that you haven't really proven that Wynncraft is immoral for accepting the work of the CT, hence why people are still debating. If you believe that "making money off of other people's uncompensated labor" is inherently immoral, then that's fine, that's your opinion, and I'll respect it, but I won't be convinced by it. If you want to PROVE to me that Wynncraft is immoral, you'll have to put in more rhetorical effort.

I suppose it's also worth mentioning that I don't actually disagree with you, in fact I haven't really taken a side in this debate yet. I've been mulling this topic over in my head for awhile now, and it's not nearly as black-and-white as I expected. Yes, people deserve to be paid for their work, but is it immoral to not give people what they deserve if they do the work without expecting or asking for it? If someone does you a favor and asks for nothing in return, are you treating them unfairly by accepting the favor? Is philanthropy folly, and beneficiaries evil? Yet, is sacrifice smart, and is the enabler free from blame? I don't have an answer to these questions, and that's partially why I responded to the debate in the first place. You presented your argument as if it were clear, obvious, and self-validating, but all I saw were the holes.

 

have you considered that i do not want money for it

 

They and Grain literally said that their working environment is nothing like that. They aren’t doing it for free because of future job opportunity or blackmail. It’s just because they genuinely enjoy what they do and they never let that negatively affect them or others. I don’t know why you’re dying on this hill to disagree with the very people that would the ones to know to begin with.

If you feel that it’s unfair, the CT could easily just demand to be paid and walk out if their demand isn’t met. What is Wynncraft going to do? Send union busters to break their kneecaps? The CT literally has every opportunity and the power to demand to get paid and are fully aware of the situation. It’s their fault and only their fault if they don’t want to then. If you’re not being coerced in any way and give your informed consent, there is absolutely nothing wrong with volunteer work. Therefore, Wynncraft’s treatment of the CT is fair. Like what, are you gonna rip people or organizations for volunteering at food banks, churches, or their kid’s bake sale? Give me a break.

 

No!!! You are clearly being taken advantage of despite your own willingness and the arbitrarily broad definition of a word!

 

The costs have increased, see here

I'm no business major, but I'm fairly sure that if the server were to restructure to pay each CT member (which is about 70 people if this page is correct) a true living wage, the server's store items would become way more expensive, or Wynncraft gets sponsored, or access to the server itself becomes monetized or something. I'm... not too sure I'd continue playing if that were the case. Hey, if that's the cost, that's the cost.

I'm sorry man, now you've lost me. The way I see it, Wynncraft is already a collective volunteer collaboration. But if I understand you well, you want the server to... stop making money...? Which would mean it can't pay for the hosting anymore, and gets shut down? That can't be what you mean. Even so, volunteer work is by definition unpaid labour, which you're now saying you're not against. Even though that's your definition of exploitation, which is:

minus the making money part. So if you're fine with uncompensated labour, then it must be the making money part that causes it to cross the line into exploitation, which means the owners shouldn't be making money, which means they'd have to pay the hosting costs out of their own pockets which they have confirmed time and time again aren't nearly as deep as necessary for the server to survive. If my logic is flawed, or I misunderstood, do tell me.

It's not exploitation because it's not unfair. CT members don't depend on their "job" to survive. They were not selected: they applied themselves, out of choice. They're fully aware they're not getting paid. They're fully aware they can come and go at any time at no cost. The fact that the owners get paid is a necessity.

 

I hate to be that guy, but:

 

This isn't Stockholm syndrome or something; just because something is possible doesn't mean that it actually is the case for the aforementioned reasons above.

 

Listen, after reading these points, I regret that I slightly sides with guy claiming that volunteering is taking advantage of people

also in before the lock

 

Good idea, same!

 

You shouldn't feel ashamed for thinking that way. Like I said in an earlier post I don't think this topic is black-and-white obvious, and it doesn't have an easy answer. In fact, having the autonomy to disagree, and even admit you disagree, with the vast majority opinion is actually quite based, assuming you've thought your stance through and aren't just being a contrarian for being a contrarian's sake.

Also why would this thread get locked, the most that's happened here is that a discussion around a slightly sensitive topic has been brought up. Unless you're referring to when the thread just stops getting replies.

 

this is perhaps the most vapid and insufferable reply you could've possibly written. i gotta congratulate you on that accomplishment. unfortunately i will not be responding to it because i have many, many better things to do than interact with internet debate-obsessed teenagers who are incredibly full of themselves

[this person did not actually read my posts]

[this person did not actually read my posts]

you seem to be unaware that there is a difference between profit and revenue

the entire basis of any of my arguments in the first place is that certain people are turning a profit off of wynncraft, even though there are many more people contributing to the server who receive no compensation at all. this can be rectified in (at least) two ways: everyone involved receives fair compensation, or everyone involved is in a volunteer position where revenue is used solely to cover server costs in the first place

 

I got into Wynncraft nearly 10 years ago at this point, and I've been on the content team for around half of that time. I never expected any form of compensation for the work I put into the game, I simply wanted to be a part of it as a hobby. Being able to be a part of an experience for other people was and is enough for me, because I do this for fun. In my free time. I've always been aware that there are people making money partly because of my work, and yet I continue to volunteer anyways because it's fun! I love writing music for this game, I love working on game balance, and I do it in my spare time because I want to and not because I have to. Plus, I have Wynncraft to thank for my love of game design, and the fact that I'm now going to university for music composition. These opportunities are the reason I have the passions I do now.

If anyone on the content team felt cheated or wronged by the current system, they wouldn't spend as much time on it, or they would just leave the team entirely. I think you should pay attention to the fact that multiple people from the team have disagreed with your take; It doesn't feel right to me that this thread got derailed into you trying to prove that the owners aren't "being decent people" and that we're being taken advantage of by them.

 

Do you even want me to agree with you? Because an ad hominem attack is a really bad way to get people to respect your opinion. If you're done arguing that's fine, but you don't need to be so combative. If you're going to brush off my post as "debate-obsessed" and "insufferable" then what reason do I have to respect and respond to your posts? And what reason would anyone else?