Patch 2.0.2's Worst Feature

For those of you uninformed:

Patch 2.0.2 was just announced and opened to Hero Beta.

While the update has a lot of positive changes –including an Assassin rework, a housing revamp, and much more– all of which I would normally be excited about, but the patch also adds a few unforgivable pay-to-win features that need to be addressed and stopped.

Before this thread is accused of being in the wrong section, this thread will also cover issues involving the way the community responds to unwelcomed features and the worrisome path that Wynncraft monetization has been going down. Which should qualify this thread being on the General Section rather than on 2.0.2 Discussion and Feedback.



Part 1: Silverbull Rank



There are two major changes coming to the Wynncraft Shop in 2.0.2: one of which adds a subscription rank and the other adds the ability to buy an in-game currency.

Starting with the subscription rank.

Back during the 1.19 Beta, Wynncraft originally wanted to add Champion into the game as a subscription rank. This decision was met with a lot of backlash, most of which were about the rank's pay-to-win perks, such as Pet Tasks, the Bomb Bell, and Champion Slots. Despite the backlash from the community, no changes were made to the rank or its perks beyond the removal of the subscription model.

Now in 2.0.2, Wynncraft attempts to do the same again. Except instead of Pet Task or the Bomb Bell the new subscription rank will give players a discount on trade market tax. Although we do not know yet if this reduction will happen on the selling or buying of items. It is clear that the purchase of this subscription will directly help your in-game monetary value, which while not atrocious is still pay-to-win.


Although it should be obvious as to why such a feature is bad for the game, there are still some common arguments for these perks that I want to address:

1. "Pay-to-win is needed to incentivize paying for a monthly subscription."​

This simply isn't true, and we know this from past experiences. Until rather recently Wynncraft only had purely cosmetic ranks yet players still bought those ranks regardless of the lack of tangible benefits. On top of that, there is definitely no shortage of dedicated players, who simply enjoy Wynncraft and wish to support their favorite server, and would likely purchase the subscription regardless of the benefits it offers or does not offer.​

2. "It's not super pay-to-win."​

Currently, it may not seem very major, but it doesn't mean it will not be opening Pandora's box to more major pay-to-win benefits in the future. The slippery slope to more pay-to-win features I will cover later in this thread.

Yet even at this moment, it is more severe than it seems. Even just a few percent off a tax, sale, or purchase, can make a massive difference when talking about purchases that can be as large as 30 stacks of LE. And that's excluding that this perk will apply to every purchase someone makes, not just a singular large purchase. Over the course of a year, if not quicker, this could easily add up to multiple stacks of LE extra for those who pay the subscription.​

Part 2: Silverbull Shares



The second big pay-to-win feature, and by far the more problematic one being added in 2.0.2 is the Silverbull Share.

Siverbull Shares are an alternate in-game currency that can be bought directly from the Wynncraft shop using real money and can be traded to other players for emeralds and other in-game items.

Yes, that is correct, real-world cash can now directly transfer into in-game advantage and goods. Of course, this currency does more than that, it can be traded back to Wynncraft in order to purchase some of the cosmetics from the store, though that doesn't include ranks.

I'm left rather speechless about this, the fact that you can buy in-game advantage for real money is already bad enough, but straight-up buying in-game money and items for real money is a whole nother level of pay-to-win. While I'm not sure how this is needed, there have been people defending this, so I will cover some of the most common arguments:

1. "This helps free-to-play players get cosmetics."​

While this is technically a possible use for Siverbull Shares, it’s obviously not the main goal of this currency.​

If helping free-to-play players get cosmetics was the main goal or even a goal at all, then the currency would simply be earnable entirely in-game rather than something you can buy from the Wynncraft Store. Like Festival Creates during seasonal events.​

Let's be honest, such a ‘benefit’ is a weak justification and just an excuse for a plainly cash-grabbing system. It's nothing more and nothing less.​

2. "It helps solve the issue of real-world trading"​

It simply doesn't. Just because you can do the same thing officially doesn’t end real-world trading. It will still happen, maybe even to a greater degree than currently. The only difference is that Wynncraft is the one who gets the money in the end.​

Wynncraft has cited Runescape as an example that had decreased its real-world trading through the same method. Yet the statistics are at best questionable. They come directly from Runescape and remain uncited, both of whcih bring the legitmency of the stated statistic into question. ​

3. "Other major MMOs do it."​

This argument is at best the bandwagon fallacy at its finest, and at worst a barely valid attempt by Wynncraft to justify their greed.​

A lot of the reason players play Wynncraft over those other major MMOs is exactly to avoid monetization models like this. Many players play Wynncraft because they wish to avoid or can not pay paid subscriptions or other expenses that other heavily monetized MMOs tend to have.​

4. "It helps Wynncraft stay afloat."​

There are plenty of other ways for Wynncraft to make a profit, most of which don't ruin the goodwill of the player base for a few bucks. Sure, most of them would take a bit more effort and creativity than simply letting players buy items for IRL money, but as the people actually buying these things, I'm sure you can all agree a bit of development time is worth it compared to what's happening.​

Not to mention there are a multitude of Servers and actual MMOs that manage to stay afloat financially for years without a subscription or excessive pay-to-win features.​

Part 3: Community Conditioning and Monetization Trends.



Finally, I wanted to close this thread by talking about what is perhaps the most worrying aspect of this whole controversy: it’s inevitability.

Wynncraft over the years has grown more monetized, specifically in regards to pay-to-win features, starting with Mob Totems, then Champion slots, Pet Task, Market Slots, Bomb Bell, and most recently the changes brought up in this thread. While any one of these things may seem relatively inoffensive now that they have been added, and some of them seem inoffensive compared to other things being added with them at the same time, they all cumulate into what is undeniably a far more pay-to-win game then it was even just three or four years ago. The real issue however is the community is growing more complacent with these changes. Many were met with scorn and backlash when announced but that would quickly give way to reluctant acceptance after time or the most bare minimum changes.

Champion rank especially was nearly completely given up on after Salted simply made it not a subscription and changed the bomb bell not to be instant. This I find unacceptable, the reality of the situation is this: for as long as the community tolerates pay-to-win features in any regard, big or small, they will continue to be added to the game you love, eventually compounding on themselves until the server resembles more a Koren pay-to-win MMO then the community and voluntary game you love. Are you okay with that? Based on the direction the monetization is heading and the community’s willingness to forget the wrongdoings done to it after a few short weeks, it mostly seems inevitable unless something changes soon.

 

Just make the exchange work both ways so we can spend emeralds to take all of salted’s money

 

While I mostly agree with your points, the idea of a subscription is kinda necessary for wynncraft to run. Like was said in the update announcement, lots of wynncraft's income comes from rank purchases, which is not stable and requires new players. Without at least offering a subscription service, wynncraft is inherently reducing its capacity to operate. So, my opinion stands that the idea behind the silverbull subscription is good, but it's exact implementation, especially the shares and tax reduction, are not. With some tweaks, the removal of those particularly pay-to-win features, and possibly the addition of other cosmetic and/or qol features, it could be a great way for the more devoted players to support wynncraft and for wynncraft to actually have a stable income source for once.

 

I saw the changelog, and when I saw the part about the subscription giving you reduced prices, I thought immediately of p2w. I think the devs have to get rid of it, or else they risk massive backlash from the community and also Minecraft EULA

 

Such a shame Mojang/Microsoft don't give a flying damn about their EULA now. Look at all the p2w servers get away with now

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Also as an addendum, IMO IRL trading isn't even that bad. If part of the update changes its policy on peer to peer IRL trading changes, ie. Cross trading and IRL trading is made legal in general, Id have no issue with the addition of this store item that you can also trade. Just go all the way or none of the way. The only thing Wynn is accomplishing with this new rank is trying to milk it's players for even more money. It won't do anything to stop irl trading

 

I totally agree, I see no problem with a subscription rank- if it's cheap enough. What I do have a problem with is features that are P2W. For a subscription rank, I'd like unique cosmetics and pets, access to a bonus cosmetic crate per day, maybe more totems per day, a couple of shouts per day. Things like that. If we got that and the x2 crates for festivals, for like $5 a month, I'd probably get it during festivals

 

there are valid points to be made about the p2w nature of the new rank/wynn in general, but this thread contains very little of that and is mostly pointless drivel. i don't have much of a horse in this race, for the record; i disagree with a lot of the ways wynn is implementing monetization, i have fundamental disagreements at an ethical level with how the server is managed financially, and i have little interest in spending any additional money on it

the amount of emphasis placed on the market tax thing is pretty silly - large trades are very often organized outside the trade market because of the tax, and that won't change

your second point here is a ridiculous argument - there's plenty of ways for these unnamed, generous wynncraft diehards to fund the server without any relevant benefits to themselves already. it's not happening, because these people do not exist (at any meaningful scale)

this is a 1300 word post about a minecraft rank

(i'm on mobile so i gave up on trying to quote specific sections)

your 2nd argument about silverbull shares is pretty meaningless because yeah, obviously wynn isn't curbing IRL trading with this. they just want that revenue for themselves instead of losing it to random players

i think your 3rd argument is funny because you go from criticizing wynn for misusing statistics to completely making up statements about why people play wynn over other MMOs (unless you have a source that you conveniently forgot to cite, of course). even if it were true, nothing that wynn is rolling would be any kind of requirement for enjoying the game's content

i agree to a certain extent with your 4th argument, and i think this thread would be a lot better if it was the only thing you included


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idk exactly what you mean by your last sentence, but this update will definitely curb, if not outright kill, the third party IRL trading market. people trying to buy in-game wealth with cash aren't going to choose illicit trades on shady websites over an official method offered by wynn, unless there was some strong incentive to do so (significantly cheaper rates, perhaps)

 

Lmfao I wonder how many more ‘not that pay to win’ features they’re gonna add cause there’s like 2849485376 of them now

 

I understand the concern, so I did some digging. I think you make some points that are good, and some that aren't.

From what I understand, the way Silverbull (is that a reference to Salted himself btw?) works is: to get its perks, you pay a certain amount of money once per a certain amount of time. We don't know the minimum price, not even the minimum length of time that gets you — the Share is monthly, but the changelog doesn't say the subscription itself is. From the three embedded videos, only Looni's says so, and he might have misinterpreted the changelog. There are other details regarding payment we don't know, such as whether or not it can be auto-renewed, if there are multiple plans, that sort of thing. Perhaps that's something they're still working out.

Cited statistics? Let's take a look at them.

...Right.
Guys, come on. If you're going to cite statistics, actually cite them. If you're going to cite the same uncited statistics and cite arguments as to why said uncited stats are shite, actually cite them. Using links[1]. I looked up this feature, and I presume it's about RuneScape's bonds, but these numbers — 61% and 81% — were nowhere to be found. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. In any case, cite your damn sources, both of you. Otherwise your claims aren't verifiable. D-, see me after class.

Does Silverbull violate the EULA? No, because the EULA is the End-User License Agreement, which concerns end-users and not stores, and licensing, which is about the Minecraft brand, name, and assets.
Does it violate the Commercial Usage Guidelines? Maybe. I've said it before: if it doesn't provide a competitive advantage to you or a disadvantage to another player, it's okay. All the perks improve existing stuff, all of which is either cosmetic or globally accessible (by other players who haven't paid). That is, except for the Trade Market tax.
This is very important. If the tax reduces the amount other players have to pay to buy your items, you aren't getting richer per item sold, but given that your items are cheaper, it will still be easier for you to sell stuff compared to other players. This gives you a competitive advantage. If the tax reduces the amount you have to pay for other people's items, then that increases your purchasing power, meaning although you will still have the same amount of emeralds, they will be worth more. This gives you a competitive advantage.

To really drive the point home, let's look at a bit of a strange example. Say Dernic wood has a market price of 125E. That means if you want to buy 1 Dernic Wood, then 125E is what you'll have to cough up. Only that's not what you'll earn if you're selling Dernic Wood, because let's also say there's a 25% tax. That means the actual value, the number you put in when selling, is 100E. It's okay though, because manual trading (without tax) is a pain, and the tax is a kind of money sink, encouraging the generation of more emeralds. Very good.
Let's assume the tax reduction affects both buying and selling. For me it's now only 10%. That means I can buy Dernic Wood at 110E. Now I sell it at 112E, which should net me a 2E profit per unit. What about the selling tax? Well, for me that's only 10%, so 112 x 1.1 = 123.2. Rounded up, that's 124E. I'm cheaper than the competition and earning a profit. And I can just keep buying and selling and buying and selling, essentially generating money out of thin air. Oops I'm Wall Street now.

That's the worst case scenario, and it probably won't happen. But as I've previously stated, any personalised tax reduction still violates the CUG. You can't argue it doesn't give you a competitive advantage, because a market is inherently competitive.
Currently, these changes have not been implemented, so the server does not break any rules. I'll leave the discussion as to whether Silverbull is pay-to-win to those who are better at, well, winning at Wynncraft. But if the tax reduction gets implemented, I will be issuing a report to Mojang. I'm hoping it won't come to that, of course.

 

I asked Salted about all the share benefits when making my video and as far as I understood it I wasn't explicitly told not to share some of the information I've shared, but keep in mind, when things are still being worked on, this for example isnt even in the game yet, theyre subject to change. But the tax reduction is when you buy something on the market, meaning instead of paying setprice+x%tax you'd pay setprice+x-y%tax. But it is a fraction of a difference. And yea I know people say like but if you spend a bunch of stacks you save so much and it's true, but if you spent that much, you'd still afford the original taxed price. It's no negative effect for the seller, they still make the same amount you just save a fraction of the emeralds, but honestly you could just save the same if not more if you knew the seller and got a friendly discount, so I don't really feel this is bad, it's not really a benefit I'd pay a subscription for either, I more so care about the double totems cuz yay grinding parties can last longer :p

Well this is kind of true, because tokens (I call them that cuz shares sound like we're buying stocks) can only be traded in for store items, when IRL-traders want to exploit desperate players for real life money that they could spend outside of Wynncraft. This is a discussion I had with LuCoolUs when we were working on the update video. I mean I talked with Zeer and Salted about the shares extensively as well. And its apparently a huge issue that we sorta tight-nit part of the community might not realise *ahem blame hypickle players switching here* but yea, apparently theres a huge issue with real life trading and its super hard for the moderation team to combat. Now if you then introduce a way to say, trade items for store tokens, then those desperate players needing items or whatever could buy tokens on the store. What issue does that solve? Well first of all, with more people selling it means tokens-emeralds value would drop significantly. What I've come to learn is that 5 USD could be worth about a stack of LE, but lets all face it, no one would give a stack of LE for that in store items, meaning that IRL trading would sorta be rendered very low in value or close to worthless. Which then again would also cause people to try to sell it for real money and not tokens, since tokens are limited. Its difficult, because I don't know how to fix it and I haven't seen anyone come up with a good solution for it either, how do you actually combat IRL trading effectively? Idk because people will always try to find a way to use money to get benefits in video games they're too lazy to put the time and effort into.

I mean it seems a little bit extreme of an argument to make. Wynncraft has grown in size over the years and that means increasing costs. Not only do they have to pay more than 5k USD a month just to keep the worlds up, they gotta pay for the website to run, pay development etc. More costs but no change in revenue means Wynncraft would just die. Now I get not wanting pay to win, I don't either, but its a hard line to balance needing to increase revenue, with adding things people are ready to pay for, its not like anyone would pay an empty "help us keep wynn alive" monthly subscription either.

I know I said I haven't seen a good suggestion to solve the IRL trading thing, but I don't mean that as a way to diminish your arguments. I just relate to the CT/Mod Team/Devs that its hard to solve the actual issue in a good way.

You do get bonus crates and totems per day, thats the x2 rank benefits thing, it means x2 the totems and daily crates and champion booth duration if you have champion :p (Salted didn't tell me I wasn't allowed to say this lmao but I asked for clarification when I made my video and he did read the script and watch it before release so I should be fine in saying that lol)

Well it would depend on what the guidelines mean with competitive. Having more money than others isn't inherently competitive as there's no real "competition" about who has the most amount of money. It's not like we have like ranked competitions and paying money would give you a higher ranking in those competitions or a pvp benefit in like pvp tournaments. But it all depends on their definition of competitive. Which is:
"A competitive gameplay advantage is something that, given identical skill levels, time investment, and circumstances, can cause one player or group to perform better than another.Be aware that certain games or game modes can be designed as non-competitive (such as a player-versus-environment (PvE) game) and become competitive by adding gameplay elements such as a leaderboard" -> there's no leaderboard for emeralds which would mean lowered tax probably does not mean a competitive advantage. I mean totems and xp bombs are far more risky, even though they're shared, but hey we all like them cuz they make our lives easier. But I'm not sure, it would be interesting to see how Mojang would see "less money randomly deleted". I'd myself say it is a bit too hard to predict, I could see arguments working for both sides.


Anywho, I've written too much now lmao, I don't like the trading of shares personally, but idk how to fix IRL trading either. I don't mind the tax cuz it's so little it won't make a difference to me (i know the exact planned amount i just dont know if i can say).
Have a nice day
//Olinus

 

You get a share monthly, however you can seemingly just buy them from the Wynncraft store at will.

To be fair, I didn't find the statistic either and I wasn't attempting to cite it.
I found a reddit thread that stated that Runescape didn't count anything but 3rd party trading, which after 4 hours of digging was all I could find. If I can even find it again I will post it here, although it's also uncited. Ultimately the point I was trying to make about the statistic being at best questionable still holds true, it's nearly unfindable, doesn't have links, is provided by Runescape itself which brings to question basically everything about it in the first place.

Once I'm home I will change that argument to be less grounded on a random comment on a Runescape reddit post and more so about the questionable nature of the statistic in the first place.

Oh, and is there a way I can get some extra credit? Thanks teach.

 

Well there's this new subscription service

 

Ironically I just came up with something because of you're comment. I will, once again flesh it out once I'm home.
(Currecntly at work sneaking in comments)

 

Why couldn’t they have just made a battle pass

 

Wynncraft follows Minecraft EULA

 

minecraft eula doesnt mean shit anymore
hsb is allowed to directly sell currency

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there is no way we arent getting a wynncraft battle pass at some point
like even monumenta has one

 

At the end of the day, Wynncraft hasn't been pay to win since before the EULA. Whole swaths of the map used to be gatekept behind a rank. The almuj desert and the nessak tundra were blocked to non-donors (And who could forget VIP town). Wynncraft used to have gold coins to buy everything too, those are gone as well. For a server running off 1% of players donating, I believe Wynncraft and the CT has been doing their best trying to balance this very delicate issue.

 

please tell me this is satire

 

https://wynncraft.fandom.com/wiki/GC_Shop
https://wynncraft.fandom.com/wiki/Desert_of_Almuj#Trivia
It's not satire...
It's not getting worse than ever before, we're just returning to the (good) old days...