Post 1.20.4 thoughts on Wynncraft

You fell into the (admittedly easy to fall into) logical fallacy of equating popularity with quality.

Even with all the flaws the item system has (both balance and development wise, but mostly the latter):
- % after raw
- int thresholds
- unique (rare as well) weapon baseline being unusably low
- normal rarity baseline
- id rounding (stuff like base 2) and rollability of certain items
- weapon set bonus not working lmao
- no clarification about attack speeds leading to new players defaulting to super slow thinking it's better for spell
- elemental exercise is a failure and everyone already knows it so it's kinda pointless to repeat it again but
- raw spell is weird due to class weapon base damages and the spell mult resulting from it, ruling out heavy melee (high raw based) type of spell items due to discrepancy between classes
- eledefs matter when they're negative (true damage wooooo) but matter far less as positives
- Ridiculous amount of healing paired with how much ehp you can get from a comparatively small amount of hp (up to 27.1x if you have 150/150 def/agi) along with the spammability of the heal spell meaning group content will never be balanced appropriately (dumb example, but reducing sp effectiveness and increasing baseline hp values would somewhat help, but not that much since heal scales a bit anyway)
- vast majority of players (also a vast majority of players active in the community) not knowing how ids are rolled (and wynntils% unintentionally making them even more confused)
- air as an element really sucks standalone/as sole defensive sp (agi,,).
- wind prison is horrifyingly bad.
- overall design of group content being a defense/ehp check, limiting build flexibility in a game where build flexibility is its greatest strength.
- 0 resources at all ingame yep. repeats a lot of previous points but mmmmmmmm
- certain powder specials (both weapon and armor) are ridiculously strong (endu, curse/courage, etc.)
- wynn combat & mobs are just... bad. Limitations i guess :(


It is still, by far, the most impressive part of Wynncraft, the only part that is relevant when you look past the low bar of "minecraft mmorpg".

Quests? Nothing truly great here.
Story? Wynn's lore is fragmented, constantly changed, inconsistent, and mediocre.
Boss fights? Wynn combat
Builds? Can't really say they're exceptional to the level of transcending the limitations of being a Minecraft server.
Profs? Come on.
and so on.


An item system with this much expression isn't easy to find at all. There's either the substat system found in many gacha games and MMOs that end up with optimal builds for each role and gated by constant RNG, the extremely restrictive set-oriented system that's well known thanks to the early days of hypixel skyblock, or many other systems without depth/without choice/both.

And yes, it being unnecessarily hard to get into is a problem which everyone agrees on. That doesn't make the item system any less dominant as the most impressive aspect of wynn.



Now that we got that out of the way, let's be a bit more positive.

You ramble a bit here, and I think most people are getting lost in the sauce. I'll try to talk about both this and the below:

There's a lot of stuff but honestly I feel like you could have summed it up in one sentence. The whole genshin parallel turned me off until I read it over and over and over. Let's draw a bit from this reply as well.

Cleaned up version w/ some of my opinions as well:

I'd definitely be interested in mono sets that are designed to be used partially, along with duo and tri sets that illustrate building concepts while filling the need for those build types early.
- earlygame mono sets w/ 2 or 4 piece bonus that you can slot into a build w/ clear direction and purpose, but also serving as a way to show what the elements tend to do/tend to have on their items as a selectable elemex reward
- early-midgame duo sets doing the above but at a slightly higher level for the player to naturally transition into
- midgame tri sets with clearly defined playstyles and pieces that show why they work (this doesn't even need a set bonus, but that's always an option if individual pieces can get abused)
- those tri sets can fill voids for things like heavy melee, cancelstack, etc. and even fill an overall void for things like heavy spell without messing with endgame balance (sonicboom is a lite example of this "working")

Those sets would have to span quite a few levels to really work (no idea how) but I disagree with making them the entire level range like morph. Some level of progression, nudging the player to move on to a more advanced concept, is necessary.
For a mono set to be from early to endgame like morph, there would have to be a disgusting amount of gimmicking (tons of -spellcost on non-water, damage, mandatory endu/dodge abuse which goes against the whole concept of making a mono set, etc.) to make them viable. And if they weren't viable, it would be a problem for people who would use them like morph. It's an impossible balance to strike, especially when it comes to offenders like def and int.
The other problem is longevity- hard to illustrate those concepts when earlygame levels go by in minutes and gear gets outleveled so fast...

For the genshin-like system, having 2 & 4 piece bonuses for new sets that focus on providing certain aspects to a build would be an interesting idea for sure, but in the current balance of items either wanting to provide a bit of a lot of things or a massive amount of a certain thing (and even then not enough, look at the pitiful usage rate of aquarius in highly optimized builds) I don't know how it'll work out. Also note how third eye isn't really used- it's slappable but it doesn't really bring much to the table. It gains 1mr over 3mr competitors but loses far too much in exchange to compete. There'll have to be some sort of incentive to use such focused sets for them to find a place in a build.

Do also note that pure damage pieces can generally be used since accessories can provide enough mana sustain & a bit of tier support (flashfire, breezehands) leaving room for non-support options in the armor. However, damage on accessories is far lower than armor, meaning pure support pieces don't get nearly as much leeway.

Where am I even going with this? No clue.


Time to hop topics:

Being on a horse is seriously overpowered (you get hit so much less), and what cavalryman does to mitigate it is a pitiful 70% spell/melee penalty along with taking up the boot slot.
The former can be built around: raw based melee (cstack, hm, rawstack), the nothing/pure, poison, etc.
The reason it's so hard to balance is because currently it's an "interesting" tradeoff: the boot slot for crazy defensive capability.
It feels like such a waste of time to make a one-dimensional set that bruteforces balance in one particular way.


crafted time (pain)

Guess what? That's the tradeoff. Can't have crazy strong items and use them without any management. Flapis is an extreme case of what happens when that's taken away.

Dura, as people have said to you before, is the way that ingredients are balanced to actually have tradeoffs. It adds a tiny bit of depth to what otherwise would be a one-dimensional optimization fest. Lowering the penalty to something like that wouldn't work (not to mention the rounding implications with stuff like mana). You also fail to take into account that crafted items are used and abused. The main reason why they aren't in every build is because of the collective resistance, both subconscious and conscious, to recommending them in builds. Even that changes when gamebreaking stuff like flapis gets brought in (ingo had a 3 flapis build or something? wild).

Not equating the proposed changes to flapis (although i bring it up a lot, since it's a good example), but crafted items are plenty strong already with a legitimate tradeoff. Burning that particular thing makes no sense.

Still can't believe you said this seriously. How do you expect an IM to address core system issues? At the very least, blame the right people.


Especially since str/dex changes are an example of how the IMs make stuff happen when systems get changed for the better (once every 2.8 forevers)




I think you see it as sanitized because the formerly vocal people know that change has to come from the top. No use in yelling that certain aspects of items/combat/the game are broken when the people discussing it know that all too well.

 

never before have I wished for a word limit to be imposed on forums

 

Might be a good idea to read a bit closely, since it seems you agree with the extremely general "fear of change" point that stems from a lack of understanding of the situation.

 

It’s ok, just read them on the toilet

 

learn to read

 

I can tell you it won't happen, it will not be locked unless it breaks the rules somehow ( like any other thread basically)

 

there's a 80000 character limit

 

Well you really can't blame Wynncraft for that; Minecraft is just so janky in general. Which is why the game's combat revolves around spamming hits and spells with disjointed and overly large hitboxes. The only thing I've seen that comes closest to improving combat was the Epic Fight Mod, but there's no way Wynncraft could ever implement something close to it. Spell Forged might come closer to breaking the combat mold but the underlying issues are still there.

 

Of course YOU know that.

 

I don't.
I want a between set because getting you're actual set together takes a while, and also often requires some items from other endgame Challenges (LI, Qira, EO, Forgery, ECT.)
Look, stop trying to push your crappy False Equalivince logical fallacy on people. Just because someone thinks Morph should exist, or there should be a few easier sets, does not mean they 'agree' with you that the item system is too complicated. Stop trying to suggest everyone actually secretly does, they don't, and its annoying.

 

lore reworks get long man

 

I don't think the point of that was to say if I think the system is popular or not, I was fairly clear that I was talking about my personal experiences with the game there. I guess I could see that being an argument from authority but that was really not the intention there, I just wanted to say that I've managed to avoid the build system for 7 whole years and dramatically express just how long of a time that really is. My main argument for it not being "popular" if you want to call it that is the dominance of morph despite it not being as good as other options, if anyone took that section to mean I was speaking on behalf of anyone other then myself then I'm genuinely sorry, that was not my intention.

These are all pedantic issues except for the last one which is way out of place with everything else and really shouldn't just be a jot point on a list, especially when bosses like the eye exist and solved the issue of combat by taking it out of the equation half the time (at least in speed runs). Combat has its issues but I think the build system or more specifically item balance is at least partially to blame for that which is something I'm sure I'll elaborate on later.

Dude... I specifically said that the best part of the game is the exploration so it's weird that you would talk about basically everything except that. You say the builds aren't transcending the limits of a minecraft server (whatever that means) but left out the crucial part that the sheer volume of them actually do. The size of the map is beyond ludicrous and the fact that there are details literally everywhere and there's no barriers keeping you out of basically anywhere is even more insane.

There aren't a lot of games with worlds like this and there are even less which are first person and fantasy, that's the main draw in my opinion. It's also simple or at least easy to get into outside the build system which to me is a massive plus.

Good thing I never said it wasn't impressive then, right? In fact, I think I went as far as to say it was a miracle that the system could even be described as balanced at all which feels like higher praise then just calling it dominant. My main and really only issues are that;

1. The payoff for professions is nonexistent (which you clearly agree on by the way, don't even try and make an argument against this if you're going to start your reply by clowning on profs)
2. The meta and more specifically the way builds are made hasn't changed at all since Gavel. Major ID's could have been that but most of them are actually useless or are extremely hard to use (like a lot of items)
3. The meta is fairly unchanging with items from 7 years ago, mainly weapons, still being dominant today for a mix of reasons and many playstyles being improved but mostly unchanged

Adding this on later since I don't really give any solutions to 3, I don't think the way to fix the mythic issue is to nerf or remove mythics, I think it's bad that they're as strong as they are but that ship sailed 5 years ago. I don't really know how to deal with the mythic issue to be honest, but I think new major ID's which change how classes are played and are fundamentally incompatible with mythics or at least the Gavel ones might be the way to do it.

I appreciate you taking your time with the genshin thing, I wrote it at 3 in the morning so I have no doubt it's not my best work. Not even joking here, I really have no doubt it's horribly written so I appreciate the feedback and I'll go rewrite it. Beyond that though,

You lost me the second you said anything about the builds specifically because if you had read my post, you would be aware that I do not in fact give a shit about builds, build lingo or really anything having to do with it at all because it's a massive pain in the ass. No offense, but this is exactly why somebody like you shouldn't be put in charge of making these items, because the point is for them to be simple, the reason why morph is popular is specifically because you don't need to understand any of this stuff for it to be useful. I'm not asking for some mana sustain tier support tier stack gimmicking endu/dodge bullshit, I'm asking for morph set but water and morph set but air, then there's a problem because what if I want to use a weapon with water and air? Instead of having a water and air set, just use 4 water and 4 air or 6 and 2 and boom, you have 2 sets on and you can go back to playing the game. Want 3 elements? Just use 4,2,2. That's simple with room to play around with and I think giving the player the ability to experiment around in the endgame without facing real consequences for doing so could encourage some players to take the dive into what I consider to be the hellworld that is real building.

I think it's more of a waste to not develop a cool idea into a more meta idea because it has drawbacks which can be avoided. The whole 8 piece set thing is my final option if it can't be made to work in any other way, that's obviously not the optimal solution hence why I didn't open with that one. I also didn't realize it's 70%, that's clearly way too high. If damage is the issue (which it is) then there are also other fixes like multiplying damage taken.

How to fix it isn't even the issue though, it's the fact that there's a complete lack of interest in fixing it because for some reason it's preferable to make sure item stats are perfectly in line rather then focusing on new potential concepts and figuring out how to make them work. If the boots are unilaterally bad at the one thing they exist to do, what's the point of them even being in the game in the first place? This wasn't even just about the riding boots though, it's about a lot of major ID's in general being fairly ignore able when they realistically should have changed the way people look at builds. Balancing major id's is hard, I get it, but at the same time I don't think I'm asking for a lot when I just want to ride a horse into battle, I don't care if it's meta, I just want it to be playable and that should be clear based on all the ideas I have on how to fix it, I would literally take anything at this point, I'm just so tired of the lack of mobility variety and I just don't get why nobody seams to care. Even after saying you think combat is an issue you still go out of your way to say even the most reasonable solution from a balance perspective is a waste of time and I honest to god can't comprehend why.

I get it, extreme diversity is hard to balance which is why I restated my line about bad balance into saying it's boring balance. If you have an issue with combat, I would love to know what your solution to it would be because mine is making more Eye style bosses and making gimicks like horse riding actually usable. More stuff like Hawkeye which drastically change spells but for other classes would be a good thing too. What about a horizontal meteor or maybe something which makes ice snake a root instead dealing a lot more earth damage without the freeze effect or something which makes multi or smoke bomb hit just one hit? Ideally I would want stuff like this to dominate the meta, but that's not reasonable but I just want items with stuff like this or even more extreme to be viable

It's probably also a good thing I steeped back from removing durability entirely and instead shifted to reducing the impact of it because my mind was changed on it in part. I still think it's bad but given the current system it's needed. That said, my burn it all down take still involves getting rid of it but we're not really talking about that since it's honestly a waste of time, I'm not even going to pretend like it's not.

Even if the items are great at 100%, they're garbage at 0% so the new fix is to just make that garbage at 0% into not meta but still usable at 0%. Maybe only a 25% reduction is too much, but even something like a 40% reduction wouldn't make the items any better or worse, it would just make them less of a pain in the ass to use since the average player would probably only repair their stuff before boss fights. If all your gear breaks you shouldn't just be left with a wet noodle, it's just not fun.

Also why is there a collective resistance to recommending crafted items? I agree with that, it's basically my whole point about crafted items and I think the reason is because they're a pain in the ass but I'm wondering why you think that is? It's easy to say it's the case but I don't see anyone else trying to figure out why.

As for the items being game breaking, that's a small minority and the issues are mostly caused by single ingredients which are especially powerful, the fix is to nerf those items and buff weaker ones just like how it's done with armor.

Still can't believe you quoted that without the explanation. It might just be me, but the fact that he said he wanted to settle this a private conversation and asked somebody else to relay that message to me isn't exactly a good look in my eyes and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that he had no intention of publicly responding until I made a big fuss about it, again, all in DM's which is exactly what I wanted to avoid. The disagreement we were having also wasn't about core systems at the time, it was about how I'm not a fan/strongly disagree with how item balance is handled and I think the process is corrupt so I did in fact go to the right person. Context is really, really important with that one. I'm not saying I was right to be a dick about it, but the underlying criticism of that post was without doubt warranted.

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Why do you think people use morph so often and why do you think it's the set recommended to basically every new player then? Why is the most popular active thread, maybe most popular ever, for people who don't know what they're doing to ask for builds? Do those sound like things that would happen if the system wasn't overly complicated? If you want to talk about annoying, it's the people who don't explain their perspectives in detail and expect others to figure out why they feel the way they do based on a single sentence.

It's also weird you would say it's annoying that I'm promoting the idea that the build system is overly complicated, an idea which suposedly nobody agrees when basically everyone who's replied except for you has at least conceded to that premise to some degree, even Saya who brutalized what I was saying still basically opened with this; "And yes, it being unnecessarily hard to get into is a problem which everyone agrees on. That doesn't make the item system any less dominant as the most impressive aspect of wynn.". Kinda getting mixed signals here because while you're out here saying nobody agrees, he seems to think everybody agrees. It's almost is if this is a controversial topic which is worth having a discussion about...

The word you were looking for is casual fallacy by the way, a logical fallacy is just generic term and I didn't equate anything to anything else to make my argument, I assumed you agreed with my cause based on your agreement with one of my central conceits.

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I think we disagree on a lot of stuff but I strongly agree with this, I really don't think it's productive to agree with arguments without reading into why they're being made. If you already have your own reasons for thinking something it's fine but I really hope people aren't just reading a few lines I or somebody else has written and immediately assumed one side was entirely correct.[/SPOILER]

 

@Sg_Voltage Can you seriously type less? maybe add TLDR?

 

idk fam i found a lot of quests fun

"fragmented"
me when i realize that wynn's world isnt homogeneous and there's a lot of different areas with different lores over the course of literally thousands of years
"constantly changed"
thank god otherwise it would be static and inconsistent and in the very few times that existing lore is changed its usually to remove contradictions or clear up misconceptions
"inconsistent"
- bob lore
- that one bit in lusuco's library that says that theorick left the house of twain after marius' death but in "the twains' downfall" marius says that "the twains were over when theorick left [them]" (disgusting and literally unplayable)
-
-
-
-
"mediocre"
ok

 

I'm not really making any arguments for anything anymore, I'm really just addressing criticism of my already voiced ideas at this point. If people are going to take the time to write out long posts breaking down everything I've said (which I encourage, I like the discussion and while I think my ideas are not without merit, they certainly have issues worth addressing) it's not really fair for me or a good look to write off parts of what they said. If I have a counter arguement, I need to say it to defend my perspective and if I concede a point it's not a good faith discussion if I don't tell the other person that they're right, that I agree or that I changed my mind.

As for a TLDR, there are a lot of topics being addressed in each post since I'm replying to a lot of different arguments in each post. Using what Saya and I said about Mono Sets as an example, if we were to make a tldr for each of our perspectives it would probably look like we agree when we I don't really think that's the case and I don't want people leaving with the idea that the nuance of what I believe to be an issue isn't important.
---
You know what, on second thought I might as well condense my points since you're right, things are getting overly long and nobody is really arguing against the central arguments that the build system is overly complicated or that professions aren't worth it. Since all anyone wants to argue about are my solutions here they are;

*if you don't specifically say you disagree with my core idea that the build system is overly complicated I'm going to assume you agree

-I want end game, 8 piece sets for each element which can be mixed together to form basic dual and try elemental builds. The idea is for these to work with basically any end game weapon so if you don't want to make a complex build you don't have to. Think morph but not rainbow and not spread across 95 levels

-I have an issue with how balance of old items is handled and think the item team is overly influenced by players who have a strong interest in keeping things how they are.

-I think items have too many stats, they should start off as building blocks with different paths you can take them through upgrading somehow.

-There are way too many items in the game, normal items shouldn't exist outside of shops.

-I want the adverse effects of low or no durability to be reduced greatly and I want SP to not be affected by it at all. No need to buff crafted items (nerf them if needed), I just want them to be less of a pain in the ass to use.

-Professions should be easier, much, much easier. Needing to be in a guild or have bombs or double XP weekends to make progress shouldn't be a thing.

-I want major ID's to exist on items which are incompatible with mythic items so the best in slot for any given build isn't a mythic as frequently. I also want more stuff like nighthawk which changes how a class is played to some degree but on a more major level. I also don't want those major ID's to be on weapons unless the weapons fairly universally strong.

-I want major ID's which change the gameplay in drastic ways like the riding boots to be re balanced so they can at least be usable in the endgame and I want to see more mobility options for combat in general.

-I want non-dps (support) builds to exist for multiplayer content where the build centers around buffing the party.

-I want more Eye like bosses, they're much more interesting combat challenges. Something like that for the end of LI would make it much more worth doing from an enjoyment perspective.

-Completely unrelated to all of this, I just want to add that tomes were a lazy and stupid addition.

Those aren't all the things which have been discussed, those are just the key points. If your name isn't Jayden, Bart or Saya please feel free to pick something off this and tell me why I'm wrong, discussion is what makes this community fun :)

 

8 points looks fun. Time to agree, a lot.

Still mixed feelings about this one so I'll hold off on continuing what I said previously, but the main thing is identity- how are you going to make them mixable without making them a generic statline/set bonus? It'll have to be all in the set bonus to keep the pieces from being slapped in other builds as dominant. You'll also have to enable playstyles beyond just defensive spellspam (what morph does) but how?
My point is: I don't know if I'm against it or for it because... how it would work in the first place?

I think a lot of this has to do with the community in general. People already get furious at the item team for tiny balance changes, even more so when revamps happen. You'd somehow have to justify sweeping changes to high-value items to the market community (classbuilders embrace change, but emeralds are finite, and quite a few players get mad when their build gets changed).

Agree to disagree, I think the "pain in the ass to use" is the tradeoff that makes sense.

Agree. Personally think making them tied to account instead of class would have been better, but way too late for that.

How would you make them incompatible without putting them in the weapon slot though? Mythics are designed to be best in slot weapons, and as annoying as that fact can be, it's too entrenched in wynn at this point. Not something IMs can change.

1. I mean they are, you build around their (pretty badly implemented) tradeoff and it's usable. I get what you're saying though.
2. Agree (although this breaks the long-buried corpse of wynn pvp even more)

Agree, but how would you make it so that people can't just hold a swapout and do both damage and support? Have the buff spell only active while holding the special buff weapon? Oh, I guess that works, but then we're locked to a tiny pool of supportive major id weapons.

A lot of people agree with this, wynn boss design in general kinda sucks.

 

You equated wanting Morph set being a thing to agreeing with your premise that the item system is too complicated. So yes, I meant what I said.

He said it was poorly explained, something being poorly explained and too compliacated aren't the samething.

Also, no, I didn't say nobody agrees I said:

"Just because someone thinks Morph should exist, or there should be a few easier sets, does not mean they 'agree' with you that the item system is too complicated. Stop trying to suggest everyone actually secretly does, they don't, and its annoying."

I'm pretty clearly refering to everyone who thinks Morph should be a thing, I even say that directly.

Im going to say this as plainly as possible.
Just because someone thinks Morph should exist does not mean they agree the item system is to complicated. They may agree, or they may not, stop suggesting that they do by default.
They are not the same, do not equate them.

One final thing, I like how to equated them in the response in which you said you weren't equating them:

Like serious, stop.

 

I mean do you disagree that they're not good? I'm not shaming anyone for liking them, they just don't stack up to other games in the slightest.

How many quests are one-off dead ends into lore (the definition of fragmented)? Lexdale witch trials is literally a disposable way to show decay, light and dark being elements (please no) get touched once, confusingly, but never again in ajb. Questlines seem to exist in their own pocket dimensions, so many people love Chef Hamsey's return in recipe for disaster because there's so little recurrence. And when there are recurring characters, it's done in an easter egg (hamsey) or exposition-dump (from the mountains) way instead of legitimately connected questlines. Don't even get started on Corkian technology being used to explain anything and everything, the painfully one-dimensional and forced plot of new rol that introduces a million more headaches, bob lore (which you put as one of two points but it's quite massive). Also note the traits of species (villagers greedy, elves obsessed with not being greedy) being so extreme to the point of blurring messages in questlines like Aldorei's Secret. Instead of nuance, it goes for "we hate greed, i really hope you aren't greedy". I guess mass xenophobia makes sense in a world like this, but way too many characters have the generic, repetitive lines to direct anger/rejection at the player due to being human...

Hmm I guess it's less inconsistent and more... plainly mediocre.

 

Lmao I wrote that last part and specifically named you but whatever, I'm glad we're at least in agreement on the major things and if you would rather to reply to the key points then all the power to you, I honestly can't blame you either tbh.

That's basically the idea, you have most of the power come from the set bonuses. The set bonuses wouldn't grow exponentially as you go up in part number like morph, there would instead be big jumps at 2, 4 and 8 or maybe 2, 3, 5 and 8. None of the stats would be stuff like explosion, mana steal, life steal, they would basically just be elemental damage, def, SP, MR, WS, maybe a little health Regen, poison for earth maybe, just basic stats which allow you do deal a reasonable amount of damage and take a reasonable amount of damage while also allowing you to have enough SP to use dual or tri elemental weapons with kind of high SP reqs. I don't think they need to give enough SP to use mythics, that's probably too much, but at least to use common legendary weapons with high SP costs. Basically, the idea is that you can use two sets and get enough benefits from both for it to work as a passable but not great build right out of the box without worrying about extremely low attack or defense. I don't think it would be easy, it would take a metric **** ton of balancing to make that happen, but I think it's probably worth it in the long run.

If you're looking for specifics, I think they would all be hybrid spell melee builds with a generic focus on what each element is, so water would be really spell based, earth would be more melee oriented, fire would be more tanky, air would be more agile, maybe even decrease the mobility spell cost or just give more WS and jump boost and thunder would be a mix of melee and spell, not too sure about that one honestly. Really the one thing I don't want to see is negative defenses because I feel like those aren't super friendly unless you know what you're doing.

For the support thing, I don't really know to be honest. I think a support shaman set up would be the easiest since the totem is the main source of damage so you could overwrite its attacks with buffs. I think the main idea would be to base the buffs on the players defensive stats or their healing stats, just not their attack stats so even if you could do damage, it would be a sub optimal way to do so.

As for the mythics, that's even more of a stretch and I'm sure people would find a way to work around it anyways. In my opinion, that's probably my single weakest suggestion since I have basically no idea on how to do it besides major ID's which is vague and unhelpful at best. It makes me happy to say that I definitely don't have all the answers and this point makes that extremely clear.

For PVP, that's really the only unique merit a burn it all down approach would have since it would require reworking every single item and mob in the game to bring them in line with a common standard. It would be a nightmare, plain and simple. That one's more on the wish list then the actually needs to be changed list too.

I hope that's fairly through, I'm glad despite our arguments we can at least agree on some stuff, you've called me out for all sorts of stupid stuff I've said in the past so I'm glad there aren't any hard feelings :D

Bruh, that quote wasn't me quoting myself, it was me quoting Saya, I'm not sure how else to interpret "And yes, it being unnecessarily hard to get into is a problem which everyone agrees on. That doesn't make the item system any less dominant as the most impressive aspect of wynn." beyond the fact that he agrees it's overly complicated, which even then is an oversimplification of what I wrote because I specifically said the skill floor is way too high ie, unnecessarily hard to get into. You said everyone disagreed that it's overly complicated, that's just plainly wrong.

"Stop trying to suggest everyone actually secretly does, they don't, and its annoying"

You missed the second part there, which is specifically what I was referencing. I don't think people secretly agree that it's overly complex, I think they're fairly open about it. You still haven't made a case for it not being overly complex which is kind of odd too since you seem to be extremely against the idea that it is. I also never claimed everyone agrees with me, in fact I've been quite self aware that my takes are unpopular so I'm not sure why you feel the need to make sweeping statements about "everyone" feeling a certain way.

You also clearly don't understand what a false equivalency is, I never said by thinking morph is good you must also think the item system is overly complicated, I made it abundantly clear in the initial post that I believe the over use of morph is a symptom and wrongly assumed that since you agreed with the solution I proposed without commenting on the issue you probably also agreed about the issue I was proposing a solution to. That's a casual fallacy since I didn't properly understand the reason for you making your point, I just assumed it based on the context. I have no issue with you thinking elemental sets need to exist while also disagreeing that the build system is too complex, I just think you should have made it clear that you specifically disagreed with the reason why it's needed, a reason which I still don't think you've made very clear.

 

I don't think this is inherently a bad thing. I think it's important even, that we have quests made by GMs that aren't tied into any major storylines and can tell their own story confined within their smaller scopes. Not every quest needs to be province-shaping with high stakes on the lines, so long as they can meaningly add on to lore and the world as a whole. I bring it up time and time again, but probably one of my favorite quests in game is Frost Bite. While by definition you could consider it "fragmented" as it has no prevalence to any other quests or storylines tied in, it offers interesting gameplay and a deeper look into Theorick's character as a whole. It doesn't need to be part of a larger questline, while still being relevant to the Nesaak region. The main issue arises that, while "fragmented" quests aren't necessarily a bad thing, there are just often times where Wynn definitely can use a more central, and prominent storyline. The Wynn region in general is lacking any real coherent plotline, and while Wynnexcavation is a novel concept (albeit, it's quite outdated by this point), it doesn't really convey what the province is about. When a new player first starts their adventure, everything they hear about in early levels relates in some way to the corruption, with it being considered the main opposing force of the story. However, it's hardly ever actually built upon, and we as the player, while having a handful of quests related to the corruption and even around the portal itself, never actually target the main issue. Gavel now has its RoL questline spanning from Llevigar to Cinfras, the colossus being the primary threat of the level 80 CotL, and the DnD questline in the Molten Heights. Even Corkus (my beloved) is now getting a more "centralized" storyline by tying in both The Envoy and The Feathers Fly questlines before the Wynn province gets one.

Unsure where you're getting that questlines exist in their own pocket dimensions from, but it is true that many people, especially myself, love recurring characters because it's typically a rare sight in Wynn. It can 100% be expanded upon.

Also not sure where this is coming from? There are plenty of recurring characters in a good chunk of questlines, with examples being but not limited to: Amadel, Aledar, Lari, Axelus, Maxie, and Ava. Granted, I do agree that Axelus' and Elphaba's introductions in the level 60 regions barely add substance to their character/personality and feel like they were done entirely for the sake that they could.

Corkian technology doing everything and anything without having a proper explanation as to how electromagic actually works is a bit of problem, agreed, and RoL does suffer from RoL 1 being fairly inconsequential to the questline as a whole (and is only really apart of it to serve as access to a raid), and RoL 3 being a massive blunder in pacing. Get WynnTheory's rework of Bob lore!!!

Villagers' greed has mostly been written out of canon as a primary issue as of 1.20, but it's true that stereotypes are a bit overplayed in the grand scheme of things.

Starting to get a bit on the subjective side and while there are definitely many points where Wynn lore struggles, the great thing is it's always being improved/built upon and every update it improves. Hopefully it'll only ever get better.

Also just gonna brush up on this one specific quest now, and while I dislike Lexdale Witch Trials being the sole quest of Lexdale (Eye of the Storm was way more thematically appropriate to represent the region), I'm never against a quest that knows what it wants to do and does it fairly competently. Adding on to what I said earlier about "fragmented" quests, as long as a quest knows what is is, as Lexdale Witch Trials serves as a one-off quest with some great parkour gameplay segments, it's hard for me to be mad at it. It's good to have a breath of fresh air once in a while from a major questline.

I have a lot more to say regarding this specific patch and the state of the game within the 1.20 time period, but most of it has already been said and being the 10th page now, I doubt it'll garnish more attention.