Weekly Community Discussion (27/12/2019) - Shaman Mythics

I tried toxo and fantasia so let's begin with them:
-Toxo: I first thought "omg that's the worst mythic ever, I mean poison ? Seriously ?" But then I tried it and it's really powerfull and fun to play with. My 1.18 poison build did 14k dps so all you have to do is launching your totem and watch all mobs in its area suffering to death. That's nice. But really it gives sort of an "upgrade" to the damages of your totem so it's pretty good.

-Fantasia: love it, the dmg are great and who needs mana regen when all your spells costs 1 mana ? Only downside is the mana steal; just spam spells but never go melee.

I can't review the others but I think aftershock is the more powerfull cause great melee dmg + shaman range is insane, it's like an alkatraz with 3 times the range of a mage (I think it's not balanced compared to other melee mythics like gaia and alka).
But the one I'll probably use on my shaman is olympic cause it looks really fun to play with, and fun>dmg.

I just have one question: why none of these mythics have a major id ?

 

A few things I'd like to note:

Absolution: Absolution needs a slight base damage buff. It's somewhat low for a weapon with no powder slots, a.k.a. no access to weapon powder special. Endurance could ease this a bit, although it's risky to get hit constantly because the class' base defense.
Reference build: https://wynndata.tk/s/xvqey8

Hadal: Hadal on the other hand has a bit too much damage, a slight nerf to it's base damage would be good. By chaining Aura and Uproot in great succession, with the damage boost from Concentration it can reach extremely high dps that extends on a huge area. The weapon besides that gives an exceptional mana sustain.
Reference build: https://wynndata.tk/s/r8qmpz

Olympics: It's damage is almost good. It needs a slight buff to make it reasonable. I personally wouldn't mind if it was slightly under because the insane mobility buffs it gives. Being able to jump 5 blocks high is both annoying however can be also useful in dodging.
Reference build: https://wynndata.tk/s/r7yq8p

Fantasia: the concept is interesting but it is generally hard to build both mana regen/mana steal and fulfill the skill point requirements of the weapon and not end up having low hp. It's the same dilemma as Warp used to be in: It's good only if you have perfect rolls on mana regen and mana steal (ah yes, mana steal doesn't matter, for you who never uses weapon powder specials at least!).
Reference build: https://wynndata.tk/s/7j5x3u

 

Plz add one mayor ID on any of them (and the low level one needs a nerf)

 

They don’t have major ids because there aren’t any shaman major ids yet, since they didn’t have time to add them I think(?) so maybe in a few map patches we will see one.

 

i want an olympic because it looks like it'd give the most fun playstyle of all

 

Wanna Sprite cranberry?

 

I'll go one by one, as I have time.

Aftershock: If you actually look at it's stats, the damage is not actually super high - slightly above Limbo, which is on a lower baseline too (though of course, Aftershock is single element). It's got strong stats, but not really that overpowering if you look at them. The biggest reason Aftershock looks so strong is because it has no competitors.

Name the end game Super Slow Reliks - try it. Most likely the only one you can think of is Lumina - maybe Shine Lamp and Mountain's Song, and iirc there's one more that I can't remember the name of (Edit: idk how I forgot Silent Night, it's probably the best of them). Lumina is level 80, with a base damage quite a bit lower, a tier penalty that makes tierstacking it less powerful, and an Agi req that rules out the strongest heavy melee damage boosters. Shine Lamp's rainbow similarly prevents full strength heavy melee or tierstack, and Mountain's Song has rather low damage (not to mention Def req makes glassier tierstack a lot harder).

Aftershock is good in tierstack and good in heavy melee, but not vastly superior to similar options on most other classes - it's just that Shaman has a severe lack of high damage options for those playstyles, so Aftershock looks super strong. Try comparing Aftershock to Stinger in heavy melee, for example (same baseline), or even in tierstack compare with Limbo (lower baseline). So, I don't think Aftershock is too strong.

I'm not sure about the four powder slots on it - seems to slightly encourage thunder powdering but there isn't really a great reason to do that so...

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Oh yeah the other one is Silent Night. It's the only remotely competitive high-damage melee Relik aside from Aftershock - it has about 65-70% the base damage of Stinger, and about 75-80% the base damage of Aftershock. Sorry for the omission.

 

Is Hadal meant to be the kind of weapon you'd use to damage mobs by spamming your movement spell? Because if so that's really cool.

 

Toxoplasmosis:
This is an interesting case. Historically poison has been very weak, so people seem to be writing it off. Even though you can easily obtain nominal 15k from poison (45k with Courage) without going too glassy - Necrosis Coal Duster Earth Breaker Crusade Sabs and some sp/poison accessories. Or you can literally not build into damage at all and just toss Taurus for -tier and sp and build tank. You still have some 10k dps without Courage, and upwards of 20k with. It's quite strong.

I do wish it was super fast though, so you could run fast raw melee too.

The point about a lack of spell earth for shaman mythics is valid to some extent, but also kind of a mythic problem in general - notice people rarely say this about e.g. Gaia.

 

One of these things is not like the other

One of these things is not the same

 

yea uhhhhhhhh no
olympic gets 12ishk auras vs highrises 9k

 

Sunstar:
It's a pretty strong spell weapon with some neat lifesteal. I'm a little annoyed that it's Normal speed since that needlessly hampers melee usage. It would be quite nice if it were a more melee-friendly speed, like Very Slow (I don't think it should be Super Slow with that much lifesteal).

Also, building Sunstar reminds me again just how difficult it is to build thunder damage without running TWF - TWA thunder weapon is very difficult on high-damage weapons especially because there aren't really any damage options.

 

To wit, Sunstar, like Yellow Lily, are both meant to be utilized with +tier items. +tier is common on thunder-related items, and due to their slower attack speeds they benefit greatly from it. Yellow Lily gets a higher base boost by virtue of being Very Slow while Sunstar's 600 raw melee helps to recoup the lesser % increase from Slow onwards.

Though, since Sunstar only needs +4 tier to reach its peak, you can also have space for non-tier items to work with it...or, since it's nearer to the bottom of the speed range already, you can use some -tier things and take advantage of the high lifesteal becoming a bit more convenient and use it for spells, since thunder also has a lot of mana steal and the item has no spell penalties.

That was the general thought process behind Sunstar...did it work? I've mostly just seen people be like "yeah, it's cool" which is great, but I'd like to know if that specific intent shone through.

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Okay, you ninja'd me, and Sunstar is Slow speed.

 

Slow is what I meant to say, sorry. The original custom item mistakenly showed Sunstar as Normal, and I've never quite been able to banish that from my mind. I have tried Sunstar melee (with the right speed lol) and it's rather underwhelming even for the amount of lifesteal.

Yellow Rose does not have anywhere near the damage needed to make up for the defensive sp penalties. Honestly even if it didn't have any defensive sp penalties it wouldn't be massively strong, so with those it really struggles to do anything useful at all.

 

I'll basically comment each mythic one by one. Because I'm lazy and my english is too poor to make researched sentences.
Little disclaimer : it's my own and humble opinion, you have the right to desagree. If it's the case, I'm open to responses and discussions.

Aftershock : I start with this mythic because I think it's really broken, especially for a low level weapon.
After 4 powders earth tier 6, "base" damages becomes close (maybe higher, I didn't test) of Alkatraz.
I see you with your "Yes, it's an alkatraz for shaman" incoming. But think of it ;
It's an Alkatraz with the possibilities of using courage or quake. Plus, tiers stacks is an archetype which is wanted to be glassy in order to balance it's sheer melee power. But instead of lower your survivability, aftershock will boost it. Because yes, I think we will play this on a tier stack build, due to it's spells statistics which will incites player to use tier stack ( and with it's relatively low requirements)
Speaking of survivability, Shaman also own a spell which can heal and maybe do some extra damages. And for spells statistics, they are to low, allowing spell damage archetype.

My conclusion about this mythic is simple : we have to nerf it.

Next : Olympic : I really like this one, it has an unique and fun niche among others mythics with the jump height stat.
It's not overpowered like some other air mythics. It's nice, so no need to change anything.

Now, Fantasia : A very funny concept, but I think there is a problem : mana regen and steal are balancing the spells reductions. However, skills points requirements seems like a bit hight in order to make this mythic viable.

Absolution : regarding only these statistics, it's a really good fire mythic.
But (again) I have the sensation that the fire/defense archetype is weak compared to the others. In fact, the phenomen of "power creep" and the evolution of pve incite players to use builds always more agressiv and powerfull in terms of damages (these playstyles are often extremely valuable. Remember : elem defs doesn't matter( hey @Druser )). The fire/defense archetype is designed for tanking, and not damages. In results, this archetype is under-used due to it's lack of power compared to the others archetypes, regardless which class you use. So I think a little buff can help this archetype. Oh, and I don't see why there is this water damage bonus.

Hadal : nothing to say, except I'm really sad because 150 Intel is too high to use it in tier stack build.

Toxoplasmosis : maybe the poison archetype will become viable in terms of damages and survivability, but only with this mythic, and so only on shaman.
It's a bit sad, but do modification this mythic will not solve the problem.

Sunstar : good thunder mythic, unfortunaly it's design is not particulary original.

That's all for me, I apologize again for my english syntax/orthograph.

 

Alright so here's my feedback. I've been waiting for this to happen :)

Toxoplasmosis:
Poison mythic? At first I thought it's pretty shit. "Who the hell thinks poison is a viable damage source?" Then I start messing with it and it clicked. by staying out of ETW (chaos-woven highest poison pants) it's possible to reach even higher grounds. I managed a 15k dps (20k in totem) pretty easily. And since it can pair up with fire powder special, it's getting a 2.5x dps boost, up to 37.5k and 50k respectively. all in all a pretty fine mythic that focuses around dodging attacks while inside totem's range. the only thing I hate about it is the wide range of poison. if you got a bad roll you can say goodbye to your le.
https://wynndata.tk/s/qpwsg7

Sunstar:
Well I predicted that thunder mythic will be a melee one, but this is kind of underwhelming compared to Aftershock. I tried building melee for it. "23k dps all right... oh wait at super fast attack speed you can only have 2 rays that damage a single enemy when in range for ranged bosses. so 15k dps alright. 20k in totem." at first it seems pretty strong. But then I discovered a blasphemy called Aftershock and all I can say is that a low level wins against a high level... by a huge margin no less. wtf? IMO depends on how you play, it is either one of the stronger or just average mythic reliks. Until Aftershock gets it's deserved nerf Sunstar will forever be overshadowed.
https://wynndata.tk/s/fcsu70

Hadal:
This thing is pretty strong on its own with its big boi damage. the 150INT is pretty hard to reach but in return you get 13k aura without totem. (17k if in totem). Since most of it's damage are in its own ids. you only need to stack mana and INT to make it viable. It's pretty strong, but it also falls in the trap called "too many important ids". Out of the 7 ids, 5 of them are important, the remaining 2? Static. It really depends on your luck if you don't have enough to reroll. It will be better to raise the base damage and lower it's spell% and/or spell raw. That way the ids don't contribute to most of the damage and thus it will work better as intended (high mana aura for concentration abuse).
https://wynndata.tk/s/iwzh8p

Absolution:
Absolution? more like Absolutely SHIT. Its damage is bad and it doesn't have powder slots. The only thing going for it is its massive hp and its healing capability, which only the hp is good while the healing is meh at best. The reason? The Watch exists. The Watched is literally a rainbow version of Absolution. Massive hp, massive heals, but with the bonus of good damage and also 3 POWDER SLOTS. The Watched have better damage alongside its powder slots for even MORE damage. I can't think of a reason to ever use Absolution when The Watch is equally, if not, better than it. A buff to it's damage should be in place. Or maybe give it 2 powder slots so it can be a better Crimson.
Melee: https://wynndata.tk/s/rk1swn Spell: https://wynndata.tk/s/idw40r

Olympic:
Uhhh... it exists? It's just a simple air mythic with the identity of jump height. Its damage is pretty nice and at 135 agi I can see it being viable unless a boss spell happens to 1 hit ko you. With its good walk speed you can dodge most AOE spells. Jump height as its identity doesn't make it stand out. It's pretty mediocre. I would suggest keeping everything except air damage% while nuking its base damage and giving it a major id (yes more air/fire major id) that makes dodge powder specials 3x as strong. So the player will have to get in close to the enemy to have good damage and risking his/her life. Plus, air powder specials are generally less useful than other powder specials as rated by the community, so having this major id as a buff of sorts will make it pretty useful.
https://wynndata.tk/s/kc5pwf

Fantasia:
Standard rainbow, nothing really that special. but the mana regen and mana steal on this weapon is something really scary. Since with rainbow sanctuary being available. that's an equipment-slot less for mana or else its damage will be sub-par. although you can reach 1 mana aura with this, a bad roll on mana for fantasia and it's pretty much unusable. This is one of the stronger mythics for shaman. I was imagining this weapon will be the polar opposite of The Watched but I guess it's fine as is.
https://wynndata.tk/s/41pbez

Aftershock:
I want to talk about this for so long and it's finally time. Although it's probably Virgo's fault, this thing is a beast. Since it's base damage being so high, you can just ignore the +15 DEF and proceed to tier-stack. And with Virgo change being +1 ~ +3 tier, you can stack even more damage on other slots i.e. Tera for pants. Plus Aftershock's innate hp bonus helps patch up Virgo's weaknesses. And so with this massive damage setup for Aftershock, you can reach 40k DPS WITHOUT TOTEM (54k with totem). Even a SINGLE RAY has good enough damage to be considered viable (13/18k dps). And heyyyyyy fire powder special we meet again. Time to boost it's damage to ridiculous levels. Fire powder specials work as +id% for base damage instead of multiplying damage like poison does, but it's still a 52/70k dps. I rest my case. Time to nerf it. Maybe give it a -3 tier id so it's better for heavy melee and lower it's super fast attack speed counterpart's damage.
https://wynndata.tk/s/3d6nip

EDIT: added Fantasia, removed false fire powder special for Aftershock, removed buff request for Sunstar

 

^ that's not how Courage works.

 

Courage gives +150% spell and +150% melee damage, not multiply your total damage by 2.5.

Nevertheless, even then the dps is extremely high. 52k outside Totem and 70k dps inside... Let's assume you also put earth powders on all your armour pieces and you're at half hp: that's +200% earth damage (Rage; 4×50%)! 67.4k dps outside Totem and 91k inside!

Also you forgot Fantasia

 

I've not experienced this myself in testing. If this is the case, it's absolutely a bug and needs to be fixed, but I seriously haven't noticed that. Additionally, in what universe is 24000 damage PER SECOND underwhelming, especially considering that you actually have some survivability between the health, the walk speed, the stealing effects, and Totem's mere existence(even with -30% water damage) alongside the fact that your spells actually still deal a good amount of damage and can get even stronger if you stay within your Totem?

 

well I knew I was wrong so I've added a sentence to my post. which it's still 52k/70k dps

oops I'll add in fantasia in a bit. but see above for Aftershock.

It's not a bug. The rays start off close and with high density then spreads out. so with the hitboxes of mobs, you can land 2 rays on a mob for moderate range. 24000 damage per second is underwhelming considering you can't land all 3 rays unless you practically hugging the mob. for practical reasons I chose 15/20k. And compare that to Aftershock and it will be underwhelming.