Info Item Team Update Thread - Latest Updates, Rebalance Changelogs & More - Update 28/6

still better, even if it is 1%

 

Why is this an issue?

 

there isnt a single ws spear over 40 which is pretty pathetic,

while youre at it you can buff the spear in general along with Lament plz?

 

I agree with the first statement but I don't really understand, why does hero need a buff? I think it's good tbh

 

its good, its just plagued with the unfortunate life of being a spell based warrior weapon

 

Lament buff when?

 

Lament is fine

 

buff lament

 

Gimme at least one reason why lament needs a buff, prefered with a build

 

because i want it to be buffed

 

You can't argue something needs a buff just because you want a buff. If you have any real arguements or evidence to show it needs a buff please present it, but just saying buff it because I say so convinces nobody.

 

what makes you think i was trying to make a real argument

 

Another thread small update... I need anime...

 

After playing around with crafted items, I've really begun to enjoy how players can now create an item to fit their preferred playstyle, as opposed to having to adapt to the playstyle of another weapon. Want to do a earth spell mage but Gaia is unviable? Make something. Want a thunder assassin that doesn't involve cataclysm and tank items? Make something. It really increases the diversity of the endgame pool, but also adds some new challenges.

Obviously, crafted items need to be very powerful in order to be worth their time. They are, And that's fine, with their power being somewhat justified by durability. However, in my opinion, I feel like certain mythics can easily be replaced by crafted items, and their playstyles replicated. This undermines the value of certain mythics and overall harms their usability. Why take all the effort to getting a certain mythic when you can just buy an equally good bootleg crafted version from the market, or make one yourself?

This scenario might be seen with certain mythics, such as:


And no, I'm not saying Hero and Fatal are bad (if you ask me, they're amazing, my Hero warrior is one of my favorite builds, and fatal just kicks ass). However, they have a really general design. Hero is really just a generic air spear with walk speed, and its only unique property is the +strength and amazingly low requirement (given its a mythic), while Fatal is a normal thunder item with an excessively unreliable base damage.

Using crafted items, I feel like I could craft something that works as a viable replacement to these weapons, with the differences being minor enough to be negligible. And I guess that's my concern at the moment. Certain mythics are designed too simple and generically, and this makes them easier to replace.

If I'm going to suggest anything, it's that IMs make certain mythics more unique: make some of them stand out more. Make mythic weapons more like Grandmother, Divzer, Warp, Cataclysm, and Guardian. They all have major tradeoffs/unique designs, making them keystones in very specific builds and very difficult/impossible to replicate through crafting. By doing this, I feel like players will still craft their own weapons for their power, but mythic items will still feel rewarding and unique through their design and varied playstyles.

 

Phoenix Wing finally becomes not-trash? :O

 

Below is my neutral and objective analysis on this topic. For anyone that would like to participate in an actual discussion about this topic please actually read through the following.

While it is true that some mythics are indeed quite bland in comparison in what you can make with crafted items as you pointed, there are some key factors in your comparison that is missing.

To begin with, we'd have to lay some groundworks about the methodology of the change, but before that, this

is kinda the point for crafted items. We all remember what salted said about mythics and crafted items being a potential replacement of those as endgame player goal, this is a part of it. We'll touch back on this direct comparison after several situational factors.

Firstly, we are constricted by how much we can change in a mythic and community responses in general. Mythic as you know, are valuable and expensive, every roll on every ID counts. Especially if we're talking about making bland mythics into something on par with what you said about, like Divzer and Warp, or even the less "extreme" ones, that would mean adding new IDs to mythics that can massively affect the rolls of that mythic. A good mythic may suddenly turn into a bad one since the new ID would have a random roll. As the community in general are already pretty detested by us making changes to mythic in general other than plain stat buff to the ones they themselves own, this would no doubt trigger community outrage more than any normal mythic changes we've made. While the optimised group of class builds people and the community that is invested in the endgame may be understanding enough to see that a change might be better for the item and the game overall, we have to cater for the "majority" of mythic owners which although make up the minority of the player base, is the most invested bunch of players we have. And we Item Team always cater to everyone no matter how big or small. Therefore this is less of a "this idea is gonna make the game objectively better so we should do it", but we also have to think about the impact of the change, otherwise we'd end up regretting it and want to revert, like brexit.

Secondly, IDs, fundamentally, doesn't do much...? IDs are stat bonuses apply to the item and the player, while with clever play with positives, negatives, and base stats and reqs we can make for some interesting and gimmicky designs, most of them don't fundamentally change the playstyle much. Something to consider is, the majority of gimmicks are realistically counterable. If we look at something as you pointed out as being gimmicky like warp, or cata, the most prominent usage of these "interesting" mythics are just, counter their negatives, even divzer have a fair share of builds that is just build agility regardless and switch to between it and a secondary. Players no matter which level and how invested in endgame would always try to optimise their playstyle to most if not all situations as possible. Designs of an item, while it can try to push forwards a certain playstyle as much as it can, a gimmick adds more challenge to making a balanced build more than actually pushing the player to said playstyle. We are currently in this weird age of players actually actively seek out challenges by making a niche and less effective builds so their experience is more interesting and less bland. That shouldn't be the case. Using interesting stuff shouldn't require sacrificing overall effectiveness in an ideal scenario, but this is the limitation of the current system and it is beyond our abilities to change. This also ties into point 1. If somehow a special game mechanic is added that makes mythics fundamentally different, a large scale change would likely be appreciated more and acceptable to the community, kinda like a "retcon" but mythic edition. But since IDs can only do so much, a change within the current system would cause more letdown than actual benefits. We'll touch on this in a bit.

Thirdly, out-gimmicking. While it is fine on paper to say we want to make mythics more gimmicky, there is only realistically not-much amount of gimmicks that can actually stands out and be mythic-like. We are already pushing the boundaries of plausible gimmicks with each new interesting rares and legendaries we add. There's only so much we can add with the current limit of the ID system (back to point 2) that hasn't been done similarly on other items. Gimmick items are more forgiving in rares or in general, lower tier, as there are more options for the players to choose and they dont have to be stuck with that one. So we'd be forced into either doing gimmicks that are less extreme, like guardian which is just a really good tank item, or very extreme, like warp and divzer, that only select people would really find enjoyment out of the gimmick and the rest would just attempt to counter anyway (back to point 2).

So now that we've laid some groundwork in the methodological problems of this implementation. We return back to the direct comparison between mythics and crafted items.

As I briefly mentioned in the beginning, the goal is kinda for crafted items to excell in flexibility in terms of customisation and by extention, the amount of gimmicks you can put on the item. Mythics are the other spectrum in this endgame comparison where you receive a certain amount of gimmicks yes, but overall you in it for the raw power, most of the case. There are more rules surrounding making a balanced item than we can enforce on crafted item and that is kinda also a way for crafted items to shine on its own. We do not want mythics to completely outshine crafted items in both the raw power and how far a gimmick can go. The gimmicks and customisation are much better used, customised and balanced within crafted items. While as you know powders nerf will be coming soon to crafted items and that has no doubt will directly impact the raw power of crafted items, the flexibility and customisability will take over and shine through the 6x t6 powder stack that people are so accustomed to using on crafted items. This is also something we cannot replicate within mythics, as you can use multiple of the same stat ingredient to push a stat higher than the rules of balance item making. This is why you rarely see the power of an item being concentrated on a single stat, but that is something you can do with crafted items. This relates back to making mythic gimmicky for the sole purpose of comparing it to crafted items, realistically, again, due to the aforementioned factor, you can always get better gimmicks with the absolute customisability of crafted items.

Given the above, we go back to this statement you said in your post

With the vast customizability that crafted items offer, are you content with just replacing and replicating the ids you get in mythics? Or are you gonna go one step further. Just coz something is plausible doesnt mean it is the optimal solution. While some people might find it interesting to replicate mythics, ultimately limiting your imagination to replication doesn't factually prove anything other than you're really running low on ideas.

The real question remains, does all of the above factors prevent us from not trying to make the bland mythics interesting? Well, yes and no. Fixing bland mythics are more of a fundamental question than it is situational. Without drawing any comparison to crafted items, bland mythics has always been a problem. But then we'd go back to the aforementioned methodological problems again, what is there to do with this debacle?

Well I'm glad you, actually me, asked, coz there is a solution that can fix all of the above problems once and for all with minimal impact.

We can add something that will fundamentally change up mythic play for good, something like special effects or mythic specific IDs that affect the fundamental gameplay but constrained within mythic tier items. It may be an ID or it may be a totally new perk that just somehow attached to certain mythics. Like ugh I dunno lets say if divzer melee will trigger a chain lightning every hit, or maybe warp will make teleport cost half mana, or like maybe guardian will increase all nearby party member's defense. I've played a game where the top tier weapons of that game would completely alter an aspect of that class into something funky like maybe imagine using a "dimension warping" themed spear would cause uppercut to create an interdimensional rift that cause your enemies to be blinded and slowed and your allies will be invisible and speed boosted within that area. The possibilities are endless and would truly add incomparable uniqueness to mythic items. If that happens, then a true "retcon" of all mythics is possible and everyone would be starting from grounds up, there also might not have a rolling issue depends on how it is done, but the main point is that the change would be so big and so unique that the downsides of this change would dwindle in comparison.

Ofc the above solution isn't perfect, you can also see as much problem it would cause as it would solve. Mainly being how it would further make mythic unique and above anything else that can remotely compare previously and that is not where the game currently is heading. Whether mythic tier as a whole should be or remain this special above everything in all aspect is still debatable, as one of the main goals for the crafted items is to be the mythic equivalent for the everyday player after all and to move mythic to more of a brag right or status staple. The technology of what is possible or not possible within minecraft and wynncraft is still very much an unknown as well.

So in conclusion? Dunno. I don't really intend this to be an end-all feedback. This is just to give more context to what can be done and how things can be done for the optimal outcome, as well as the amount of thoughts that need to be put in to reach that. There are multiple layers of item balancing other than juggling numbers and I also don't think me alone can come up with all the perfect answers, but with more information and insights I'm sure we can come up with some thought-provoking discussions.

 

Just make your own gimmicky, mythic level crafted item if you want a new or non bland mythic :shrug:

 

I absolutely love this idea of adding something completely unique to mythics only

 

Just some comments and observations not related to crafted items.

Catering to a specific small amount of players still isn't catering to everyone. I still think if a change is better for the health of the game, then do it. Sometimes a change may not be favored by part of the community (example from another game: the Mercy rework in Overwatch), but if it is better then it should be implemented. Admittedly some will get upset over a change that nerfed their build, but in the end I think if you're balancing something to make the game better, you shouldn't be scared of upsetting your player base if you know that the change will be beneficial in the long run. If players are getting upset by new IDs being added that change the mythic's value, maybe it's time to look at how mythics and items are implemented rather than trying to work with the item system in place.

Yea this isn't necessarily y'all's (the Item team) fault, but more of the developers not really focusing on the combat/item system: which is why I think many people think Wynn on the class build scene is kinda really bland at times and also the fault of paragraph 1.

 

What is Virgo supposed to be used for? As far as I can tell, it practically never gets used since it has such low health (and thorns/reflection are kind of useless anyway). It's the only level 90+ legendary item that seems to have no purpose*.

*besides Pandemonium