How Wynn Breaks Immersion

Like I said,

it takes what I said completely out of the context of the situation, and thus is completely irrelevant to compare this to that.

I already addressed this. I said myself that challenging things do require time and effort, but things that require time and effort are not always challenging. You should have to work for something regardless of the difficulty level.

^Most of this. Players hate having to go out of there way to find players to do things with thanks to ??? and Bob's tomb, both of which absolutely require multiple people or accounts. Making every single dungeon require multiple people turns them down repeatedly. By the time they could actually get the people required to do said dungeon with them, they could've easily leveled up and done something else, making most rewards at those dungeons lose a tremendous amount of their value outside of the late game ones. This is a problem that has been solved by most dungeons in the current reward system, making the rewards that require a ton of runs less for lower level dungeons. Some dungeon rewards can last a very long time and there is no denying that, but most can be easily substituted for something else that can work. If anything, as much as I dislike the idea of it, we should change LI, not dungeons, to the point where it actually requires multiple people to do, even with the best gear. You get insane rewards from it (being arguably the best accessories in the entire game), and it has multiple strong bosses you need to fight for said rewards. The only problem is even with a mediocre build you can easily get through it alone if you have knowledge of how the bosses work and it becomes a joke.

 

The big fish of all of it being repeatitive and not fun is still in the room, and thats all I was trying to say.

Is that so? No one said something against that.
Then again, what I did say was, to decrease the ammount of time used to repeat the dungeon over and over again could instead be used to prepare, focus, slowly advance through the dungeon, plan ahead, think about your situation and what you should do, invent tactics for the boss, etc.

If you take 10 minutes each run now at low difficulty, and need 5 runs, you end up with 50 minutes of effort put in. Nothing special, just 50 minutes of boring dungeon.
Let's change the Dungeon system to a one with something more challenging. Now you only need 2 runs in a much more difficult dungeon, where you take around 20 minutes, but have to concentrate, prepare for it beforehand etc.


Ofc. this is just a bold estimation, but its just to get my point across. And this way, you won't have such a high rate of repeatetiveness. Get yourself 1 or 2 other players and you are good to go. Maybe introduce a new system for this? Some kind of blackboard that tells you where players are, what dungeons they would like to do, how many they already have in their party?
Hey, this is just a suggestion, and would perhaps be hard to implement, but at least I try to give something to improve instead of just saying "this is wrong".

No, it does not. If you get my comparison, then what is wrong about it.
"Hey look, A, B and C did [Something Magical]. Thats like 90% of everyone doing it. So it should be cool if I did it too."
That is the base essence of my argument. What is wrong with it?

Sooooooooooo, ehem.

Up above, its a plane, its a bird, it's [Both my arguments fused]
Repeatetivness is boring. Plain. And excusing it with "it's just how it is in most games" is a very poor way of excusing it. Make it fun. Make it challenging. Not right now. Maybe in the future. But its still a complaint to make, or else it will go unnoticed forever. Because I honestly doubt most people find it fun to do a dungeon that is not hard 5 times, each time having 20 additional boring minutes. Yes, Fallen Factory was very fun. For the first 2 times. It was challenging a bit. For the first time, because I didn't know what to expect.

There are games specifically designed to be hard. Danmakus, for example. Give a player enough time and tries, and he will eventually be able to easily best the game. Thats how humans work. We adapt, we learn. You cannot take that away from a player. The only way to counter that process of learning is adding an RNG factor, having the players learn to adapt quickly as the attack patterns change from time to time. Even Handycapping yourself. "No hit Touhou run". I don't need to say more. Even with a build that deals only 1 damage more than the regeneration of the mob can heal it, the player will eventually best it.
So that can't be an option, because it would just unneccessarily drag out the whole fight or make it unneccessarily difficult.

Let's start with 2 things: Fix Flamethrower and lower chargestack.
Even when invisible, Flamethrower hits assassin.
And a chargestacking Cybel literally kills everything that is not warrior or tank-assassin or tank-mage, making Cybel a rather RNGy fight.


How to make LI more difficult (because I do agree that it is a bit too easy as of now).
First of all, make the boss fights something that is a bit RNG, but still managable. Quick thinking is the key to a good and challenging boss fight imo.
Just a mob with tanks of health and Barretts of Damage is not challenging.
Make the boss have different attack patterns. Not just your classical spells, but something unique to the bosses.

Mummyboard for example could use something like shooting rays of sand that blinds the player if it hits, but can be dodged by moving in the right way.

Plague Doctors Viruses are already somewhat special, but could use a buff. Make them more damaging, but decrease knockback and make them move slower. Make Plague Doctor have an attack that causes nausea if you are within a certain radius, but then again, dodgeable if the player concentrates. Or an attack that literally POISONS the player if he can't manage to dodge it in time for like 2.5k poison each tick. Nothing to be spammed though.

There could also be a spell that makes a mob invincible for short period of time. Make a boss have thorns or reflection. Something a little bit witty like in Galleons Graveyard where you have to use utility like cannons to defeat the boss.



Or maybe I am just overthinking at this point. In the end, it comes down to the people who have a plan about the game mechanics.

 

while flamethrower is pretty bs, charge stack is actually avoidable

 

I never found myself able to avoid it. Every time I saw Cybel starting it, I went on distance, moving around in the middle of the arena, when he just tackles me bc of the 3 block radius of the explosion. Either that or he manages to randomly hit my invisible assassin. Still makes the fight somewhat not-controllable rng.

 

Repeated charging I'm fine with because it's an interesting mechanic, but the stacked damage is overpowered. Like Shots said on Youtube, Wybel/Cybel is mostly fine, except he can decide to oneshot you whenever he wants.

 

You literally quoted my message and said that I didn't say challenging things required time and effort. So yes, you did say something against it.

This isn't that bad of a suggestion, but the main issue I still have is the reliance on other people having to be with you. Like I have stated many times, players in Wynn dislike having things require them to have to wait and try to get other people to do it with them.

It was the comparison you made that was the problem because it had nothing to do with anything being discussed. However, we have argued on this for too long and now it is also irrelevant to the discussion at hand, so my apologies, but moving on.

It will still become boring even after making it more challenging. No matter what you try and do, there will always be repetition, and thus there will always be boredom. You could make dungeons as fun as you could ever want, but even then it will eventually become (or at the very least begin to) dull. Like I said, in future dungeons I would have no problem seeing this. In current dungeons, I would.

I have never even heard of Danmakus nor have I ever played or really even looked into Touhou, so both those comparisons fall flat when you show them to me because I have no idea the difficulty level of the game nor how the game works. Regardless, I do agree about the RNG factor into bosses is fine until there is an over reliance on it.

Flamethrower honestly isn't as bad as people make it seem. Two clear problems that do need to be fixed is it hitting you will vanished as you stated and it losing target on you when it is blinded, but other than that it is very easy to dodge. Just run away from the mob while it's using it and you're safe. If those two problems got fixed, it would be perfectly fine as a spell.

Chargestack, on the other hand, I agree is ridiculous. The main culprit behind this is the fact that when a mob chargestack spams it is impossible to predict when or where they will land. Another culprit to this are the pull/push spells, actually. These make it where you can either be pulled towards or pushed towards the explosion of the charge, making it where you pretty much can't react if they do it right as the chargestack spammer is about to land. For example, even if you're a tank whatever, Cybel can easily oneshot you. I had a friend who was doing a LI build with legit guardian and 16k+ hp and got ohko by a Cybel stacked charge after getting pushed into the corner that Cybel was pretty much a second away from landing on. It's honestly ridiculous how destructive enemies can be when they stack it. Cybel would actually be a decent/good boss if this wasn't the case. Him and his disentegrator cores just kind of decide when they want to kill you.

We have to keep in mind though that this is still minecraft, so we can't go too crazy with spells, suggestions, and whatnot. Really, the only special spell I know of belongs to Theorick, being his ice spikes that come out of the ground (but these also lag out the server, at least for me anyways). This is not to say that the current spells can not be used in creative ways as mechanics. Mummyboard's "shooting rays" are basically the combination of when he uses tp and melees at the same time, so that wouldn't really change much imo. Virus Doctors minions are perfectly fine as they are. They provide great support for the boss due to how many of them there are. They can multi-hit you away from him, explode and deal damage on you, or debuff you with slowness/weakness. They're also basically unkillable, meaning they'll always be a constant threat. If anything, Virus Doctor is the one who should be changed like you suggested. He's just your generic ranged mob who tp spams around the arena chucking potion bottles at you.

Another idea to go along with having a boss have invincibility (assuming you mean damage anyway)/thorns/reflections is having them be immune to debuffs. This was brought up in a general suggestion to add a raid boss a while ago when I was trying to show how easy bosses still would be due to the nature of the classes. Stunlocking is obviously one of the deadliest types of ways a player can deal with enemies. Even Cybel can become a meme if you manage to lock him down with stunlock before he starts spamming everywhere. Having some enemies becoming immune to these debuffs effectively makes them much more dangerous to have basically one dominant strategy when using your spells. Of course, I do not know of the difficulty to actually implement this in game either, so for all I know this could be a ridiculous suggestion as well.

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Heck beat me to it.

 

I love how hollow knight does bosses. If you know the attack patterns perfectly the fight is easy. But it takes a while to learn the attack patterns. Watch the “nightmare king Grimm boss battle” for hollow knight on YouTube. You won’t be disappointed.

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As to special spells and whatnot, you’d be surprised with what you can get done in Minecraft. I’m a developer myself, and even I’m surprised sometimes. See my message above to see what I’d like out of boss battles.

 

I hath been summoned!


Wait Wynncraft isn't it realistic?
But everybody told me it was like this

Spoiler: (Picture was too big so here)

Oh wait you're telling me it looks like this?

Spoiler: Picture was too big so here

THIS IS RIGGED


Yes I understand the whole debate but fuck off here's a few memes

 

That's exactly what I meant with "fix". Not nerf. Just fix.

Which is what I would call "not controllable RNG". You have no way of countering it if worst comes to worse.

But in order to actually have interesting boss fights, we need to implement a bit more of variety. As of now, most bosses are literally just lots of health and damage, and one unique thing about them. Bob has his swords, Death the other Minions, Doctor the Viruses, Doctor Legendary the TNT, etc.
I would really love to see more complex attack patterns in the future, something that really challenges your.

Agreed.

Continues to stunlock Mechorrupter of Worlds with Arrow Storm, melting the HP with Divzer like butter in an oven.

 

Hopefully you don't shout at me or anything (sorry for the rude introduction) but I do agree that the story is kinda messy right now, but Wynn's story has been patched up, not Gavel though, and they should show more of a region's history, the Wynn Plains discoveries do give you flashbacks, but the Desert ones only show a very short scene of the king being assassinated by Hashr, but there are some things like Ancient Nemract's destruction still waiting to be seen and made, and that the player has no consequences whatsoever, now these I'm fine with on your side but changing the mechanics entirely? This is a game in a game, limited ammo for Archer would actually kinda suck, if this ammo had a weight system you could run out and have absolutely nothing to fight with, unless the mobs you fight drop arrows, Archer is glassy but strong in ranged damage, and so far it seems balanced, some people even think Archer is weak, and also killing a boss or repeating a dungeon multiple times is normal in many games, in any exploration/open-world game have you repeated the same dungeon before? Maybe or maybe not, but this is Wynn, it's a game in a game, not many possibilities at store, unless they decide to use something like functions, I don't know how they make special ways to obtain keys/worthiness, also a small percentage for a mob to drop something to give you access to a dungeon can be grindey in most means, but isn't Wynn itself a grind? It's just that Wynn is getting a bit too grindey so it can't have even more grind, but perhaps random exciting encounters to gain keys/worthiness would be made, for example if you hear a bush shaking and protruding particles, something runs out and turns out to be the rare Glow-Rabbit that the residents of Cinfras have been ranting about, it opens up a portal and you go into the portal with it, you see a strange land filled with enormous flora and interesting fauna. You hide behind one of the mushrooms and watch the rabbit feast on a fruit, and quietly you pounce onto the rabbit but it disappears in the blink of an eye, so you set up a trap that will be sure to keep it still, you get a fruit and fill it with iceberries, the iceberries will slow down the rabbit, making it easier to catch, the rabbit is interested, it bites the fruit and gets a cold surprise, it chills and walks away slowly but you grab it in time, but then a powerful sorceress appears says that she will not give you the animal, but she will give a coat made from its radiant fur for your agility and intellect for capturing it, she opens up a portal to the your world and you depart, even though that does seem something courtesy of a quest I'm not sure how that'd be made but I suppose something like it.

 

It'd be actually fun if this was canon; that reality was splintered in some way that allowed you to repeat events that had already happened before, and everyone is blissful to it occurring.\

Basically: Time is broken. Broken beyond belief, the player sometimes can redo events that had already occurred; like returning to the Ancient City to fight Amadel once more, or fighting Qira again, and how he can enter a portal in Gavel and travel to a distant future where the Corruption had won and had resurrected the dungeon bosses to be infinitely more powerful. I don't know how it'd be revealed to the player that he is doing this; but yeah.

It'd help with contradictions & further enforce the idea that "anything is possible"

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Another thing I'd like to bring up is that lore does not match up with itself. Older quests have outdated lore and contradict themselves as well. The newer quests are better off, since they are being created fresh and the CT have a better direction of lore to go on.

A good example of this is that the quest "Fate of The Fallen" and its dungeon barely match up. Theorick sounds regretful and sorrowful in the dungeon, and in the quest, he is absolutely fucking livid about the player even interrupting him and the little girl going off into the Tundra's forest, and constantly insults everyone near him, and then near the end he constantly goes from trying to keep himself under control and channeling the literal Eschaton.
(They're aware of this at least and Selvut tried to peg the shit out of Grian to not do this)

Solution: go back through all the older quests and dungeons and change the dialogue.

We also get a constantly changing definition of what the Decay is; first we hear that it's a thing of Darkness that was planted to destroy the Province, then we hear it was generated by the greed of the villagers through the larger succoru parasite that infected orphion, and then we hear its like a fucking curse.

Solution: make it obvious that some people dont know jack shit about what they're talking about and make it obvious that others know exactly what it is

 

thou hath been bumpethed

 

I found this absolutely weird, I feel like the forgery should have been near the neather portal... And Gavel should have its OWN dungeons.

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I hate dungeon keys tbh

 

One more thing:

Making Wynn be solely focused on gameplay is a bad idea. The gameplay can be good, but soiled by a poor story and poor reasoning behind this gameplay, how it works, and a lot of seamed together stuff like Forgery being in the province of Light itself and being so close to Light's Secret, in the middle of the Light Forest.

Throwing away that for the sake of "is it fun?" isn't going to play out well in the wrong run; It's even said in the GM guide that not everything should be all big and important and impacting and gameplay impacting; but those quests that aren't exactly big, but still enjoyable, rich in storytelling and lore are where its at.

Corkus could've just been machines and shit and no magic backing it and just thrown in to make the game more fun, but it isn't. They took the time to better build the story & reasoning behind why they have machines, that the workers from Fruma, after being left to their own devices for a bit and being around creatures who commonly harnessed magic, found their own magic, Electromagic (which was actually known about before they began to use it!) which would allow them to create mechanisms that fueled themselves on their own magic, and in a far more efficient and complex way than any other mechanisms shown before.

Yes, fun stuff can be fun, but it can be soiled by it making absolutely no sense for it to be there, like how a random Villager named after a TES God found an extremely dark and destructive magical artifact from the depths of the Dernel Jungle, a place that's way more dangerous than the Kander Forest in my opinion, and the people who needed that artifact just so happened to be in the same area as him and knew exactly where he was.

For another example; Dying Light was an amazing game with an enriching and amazing gameplay experience, but a poorly written story with some things, like (a grappling hook) just being there, and how he's the only person who has one.