Any Class [psa] Do Not Discourage Non-lv100 Builds

The way I see it is while you agree on what you said, you disagree fundamentally on something my post isn’t trying to uphold. Which is what make your argument fall flat, becoz you are targeting on something that my argument is not building up on.

You also misintepreted how I present my argument, the “elitist mindset” is referring to how us veteran view the game, and not how you talk to new players. This misinterpretation is likely due to your fundamental resentment on how I phrase my thread, which is something I’ve already explained on my reply with Recharge Noire. I cannot be held responsible if you want to make it your focus of argument. Again, if you wish to make it your focus to educate me in how to phrase arguments, then I’m at all ears, know that I make the thread as so knowing people are going to jump to this opportunity to do so. Which is why it is perfectly fine if you want to facepalm.

If anyone have anymore questions about my attitude, please pm me about it, I’ll gladly hear you out.

Now for the debate, this will be my last reply for you, our discussion is not contributing to the main debate mainly becoz of the direction of our approach is fundamentally different, which is why it sounds like both of us doesn’t make sense to the other person. Therefore I would kindly ask you to move this into PM if you really want me to debate your topic as it is not the same as mine.

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@Recharge Noire @NicBOMB I have remade my thread to be more gentle, since the responses have proved I have reached my goal in stirring up reactions and controversy for people to take notice of my thread, thank you for participating on the criticism of my attitude.

I have also added a few points from the comments, please go check those out as well

 

The problem is: If someone creates a build for <80 and even if it doesn't completely consists of rares and legendaries, it will still be hard to get. And I would assume that many low-level players run into this "pitfall" of thinking they would get a better time by creating a cool elemental build, but actually ending up desperately searching for the items they want, asking on the forums where to get a certain item and only receiving the answer "loot chests and get lucky" because thats actually the only way, except buying from other players, but good luck finding many low level shops. Even if they manage to aquire the build, it will become useless after a few quests, making them question why they put so much effort into it. Plus, just slapping together some rares and legendaries you randomly found often results in a better build than well-adjusted uniques and rares.
Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, some players may actually enjoy searching for certain items, some may play the game in such a slow pace, that they benefit from the build and other might want to solo CoW or ToA at their intended levels. But for the others, the "pitfalls", I'm totally ok with people warning them and explaining them why, although I would agree it shouldn't end up in a "shitstorm" completely scaring them off from builds. And the best way would be to at least provide an example build or advices about important ids regardless of their final decision.
About the problem of builds being too difficult to get: Thats not a problem that can be solved by just adding more useful items (although they still improve the game a lot, don't understand me wrong), its a result of the complete random loot system. The only solution would be some sort of crating-system or at least in-game-shops (to make it worth the effort of selling lower-level items), but of course thats nothing that you Item Team members are responsible for.

 

I agree with you there. Though explaining this reason doesn’t force them to play a certain way. I just want them to know that it’s not necessary so they don’t spend all that time and money looking for specific items that will become shortly useless.

Only then once they understood that and still wanted the build I would give them a build. Low levels by their nature haven’t experienced the full game, and not making a build throughout most of the game seems counterintuitive. So it’s easy for them not to know that reason. That’s all.

 

Why is it suddenly a problem to "discourage" something

 

This is what I meant by saying that mid game builds can last for a while. To me, this should be an incentive for lower level players to ask for builds that are their level. If a combination of items lasts you 20 levels, that's enough of a reason (imo) for them to ask for a build.
I do understand what you're saying as well as what by2011 is saying: it's up to the person to decide whether or not grinding for those items is worth it, since the market most likely doesn't have them.

I think the best alternative is to make builds focused on dungeon items. Dungeon items are really good for their level and can last quite a while. Sure, some dungeons are longer than others to finish, but at least you also get a good amount of xp for completing them.

 

That’s what I was trying to say; you can pickup random pieces on your way and be fine, hence why there isn’t a real reason to optimize your build until you do endgame challenges. Because anything is almost viable, it isn’t worth to find the best pieces.

That’s why I also don’t recommending grinding for dungeon items that require more than 4 times to do in a single play through. Because you get a bunch of xp, you quickly level out of the dungeon and into the next one, which at that point you probably would have found better gear via mob drops or chests, or the next best items would be in the next dungeon or area.

 

Exactly the point. Couldn't have phrased it more concisely.

 

I rejoined this game recently and leveled a character to 100 in a few weeks. At the time, I wasn't even considering a low or mid level build because I easily got 10+ levels every day by just doing quests. Letting people who request lower level builds know that they are pretty useless actually helps them. Typically, the only people who request low level builds are new players, and as a returning player, I can definitely say that the huge number of items is extremely confusing, and add to the fact that new players won't be as good at trading and finding these items, it gets very difficult to get the build in the first place. No one I've seen has been rude in telling players to level before making a build, and it truly is good advice.

In my opinion, you're just leading people down a pointless road by giving them a build that, even if they somehow magically get the items for, will become completely obsolete after a few hours of playing. I guarantee you the vast majority of players who request a lower level build will never actually get all the items for the build because of just how confusing the game is.

 

Doing a dungeon 6 times to get from 99-100 is much better imo than sitting through 10+ hrs of grinding, killing easy mobs and gaining xp. I find grinding extremely boring and have already ran threw the game, why should I be forced to do it again?

 

Because rpg games are not meant to be beat in an hour they are meant to takes TONS of time and grinding, it is just how the games are played

 

exactly that ^^ also think about the newer guys who havent finished the game 6times but are on their first run. All they hear from midgame onwards is that they should go and do csst. They then end up with 0 knowledge about the game and areas, a shit build and way too weak for anything thats at least sorta "tough" at endgame and a whole lot of frustration because of that which may lead to them quitting. Quit thinking that if its no issue for you its no issue for others. I have seen enough questions from ppl in this situation that get me close to slamming my head against the table since they are the things that everyone remotely close to endgame should know.

 

To be fair though, the whole point of playing a game is to have fun, and mindlessly grinding for hours in place of content that should be there is not. Sure people may quit because they’re confused about what to do after reaching level 100, but they’re definitely going to quit if they learn that they have to grind for hours just to reach one level at a time.

Grinding like this is bad game design. Period. It’s just extreme padding. An RPG should take long because it’s holding your interest through its story and/or gameplay, not because it’s a level simulator.

 

Second paragraph basically sums up Wynn oof

 

I dont think grinding as a whole is necessarily bad gamedesign. If it gets broken up by other interesting things to do then it is an alright thing to have (or if you manage to make grinding actually interesting). That said yeah wynn grinding is bad. Its terrible infact. However i dont think its as bad as ppl seem to make it. Especially with xp gear its really not hours and hours and hours in the level 95 area. Sure to 101 it takes forever. However that is an easter egg and has nothing to do with the whole csst issue.
The issue is that ppl are told to start doing csst as soon as possible (level 78) aaaaaaaand id like to point out that we actually have an insane quest overflow in the 70s that should carry you at least past level 85. And even past that it only gets actually bad at level 95. Id be (to some extent) alright with csst if it new players werent told by the community to start doing it as soon as possible. At 95 they are basically endgame and should know how the game works.
Other issues aside from that is that while there are other places in endgame ppl use csst eventhough the dragonling grindspots are probs at least just as fast. That cant be excused with "oh but so much grinding booooo ;-; ". 2 reasons for that. 1 Laziness and 2 simply being bad at the game. Meaning while we do have other just as efficient places ppl choose csst for 95+ which devalues the entire leveling up process and thus deserves a fix.
And finally... csst plainly is just an insult to the word dungeon. It feels more like holidays at a beach instead of a tough dungeon in which you risk your life.

 

I would just tell people to do it around level 90 then. I got to level 92 without CSST on quests alone with my archer before I deleted it. Though CSST might be needed a bit earlier since the Hidden City is broken atm.

If it wasn’t for the lack of content in the 90s, I’d be totally against CSST.

 

hehehheheh

not anymore apparently

 

Oh cool

 

I'm just gonna post a few thoughts and my experience with ToA here and be done with it. ToA's 6th boss's only weakness was water and it had a time limit. It resisted 3 elements, one was thunder, another was air, and I think the last was fire. I was going at it with my thunder air assassin and had to use my back up weapon (Bob's mythic dagger, My main weapon, chakram, didn't do jack to it due to elemental damage.) I could get it about half way down before time expired. I asked if I needed to re-do my build for the boss and ultimately lv 7 of the tower. I was told that any water dagger would do. There were 2 people in the are that helped me do it the same day I was walled by the same boss. One of which was a mage that was just barley above my level. He had a water weapon. He proceeded to knock out half the boss's hp with 3 spells and a few attacks. Point is that pre-endgame builds are not necessary, Just track down any elemental weapon that suits you need for the moment (I could of easily killed that boss if I had a water dagger, even though my build is not a water one.) Not to mention when you reach areas such as ToA, the hive, and possibly LI (Haven't attempted it yet but I hear it is corkus's floor based mega dungeon) It's not a good idea to invest all this time into a build that is just going to be scrapped and replaced with something better in about 10 levels. THIS is why everyone recommends you be lv 100 before questing out to create the ultimate build. Unless the dev team raises the level cap to something like 150, those builds won't need to be scrapped in 15 or so levels. And if they raise the level cap to something like 110 or even 120, those builds will still work because we already deal with lv 100+ mobs in the highest areas of ToA and the Hive.

Not to mention, by the time you get to level 100, you will probably have enough LE saved up to actually afford some of the gear, and you can devote more time to item hunting because the quests are done.

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And about CSST: I think the dungeon itself should just be re-worked so it can't be speed ran for XP, This leads to lv 70 players at lv 100 begging for items like said above. The reason that CSST is so popular is because of there are just not enough quests in the last 10 levels of the game to propel you up to lv 100. This leads to lv 95ish people running CSST to get those last few levels. Other people see 'hey look free xp!' and jump on. It also inflates the economy because of all the emeralds people are making off of the loot drops.

 

I don’t see how that is unique given that everything else also creates emeralds such as grinding, loot running, questing, etc.

 

It's not unique, But It can't be denied that dozens of players getting an inventory filling of items from repeated CSST runs is doing something negative to the economy. There are a LOT of reasons why the economy took a permanent vacation down the toilet.

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I can conform that hidden city is fixed, I just finished it yesterday.