Any Class [psa] Do Not Discourage Non-lv100 Builds

[Per request of several people, I have now rephrased my thread to a more gentle tone, but please understand that originally this thread is extremely aggressive due to this being a problem I found infuriating as a person for a long time, also to stir up reactions and controversy to get attention to the issue]

Salutations,

One trend that I have noticed in a lot of the lower level build help request thread is this

Mina-san, if you're bothered to comment on a thread, please give a proper reply to the person's request, as this is the [Class Builds] section, it is the [#class_builds] discord channel, not [Endgame Builds]. Speed leveling and lv 100 class building is not the only way to play the game. There are a lot of people that play the game at a different pace than you, more than you would think. Not only is basically telling the person "git gud b4 u wanna make buildz lul" not helpful, this also cultivates a bad culture within the build making community.

As the Item Team (subtle plug) adds more and more items, mid game builds and non-lv 100 builds are becoming more and more viable, in fact, it is almost at a point where you can make an elemental build at whatever level and find the appropriate items within +-5 levels. While it is a fact that people may level out of the effective levels for the build you made, it doesn't stop people from getting the elements' gear once you laid the foundation for them.

If you are not good at making mid-game or non-lv 100 builds, please also give some fruitful advice in how you think their build should be, instead of plainly telling them to level up. @by2011 in the comment section has made me realise this point.

These are some of the responses you can do as an example.

Non-Endgame Builds

Endgame but non-lv100 builds

If you still want to help guide the player even without an actual build

Now that I have remade my thread, please stay on topic as much as possible.

 

Never knew that there's people who still blames non-level 100 build requests oof whatever

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suzaku

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Edit : oof this build is outdated - Using Gambler

 

Like many things, I blame CSST for this mindset.

 

I agree csst takes out the whole fundamentals now instead of grinding and doing quests as soon as you hit lvl 71 ur just grinding a dungeon 50 times until your level 100 and then we have a large amount of level 100s with no money begging at deltas, dungeon bombs SHOULD be removed because they ruin the game this is would also mean it would be harder to reach level 100 so there would be more non 100 builds and helping silvers cause

 

I disagree about the dungeon bomb removal bit, it makes wynncraft some money as there are a lot of people who pay for csst runs. However I do agree that it is bad that as soon as you hit 71 you start grinding a dungeon, I think csst should just be only for the near end levels, as some people don’t just want to grind mobs for a ton of time

 

Alright, I can see both sides of this, but seeing as nobody has yet to defend the people who. post those messages, I guess I will.

First off, this is a horrible way to start an argument. If you want to convince people, do not call them cancerous and lazy at the start of an argument. This is even worse when you look at the fact that your are a staff member, and that reflects upon the entirety of the wynncraft content team, and what you said makes them look elitist and immature.

Again, Making people who disagree with you seem stupid is immature and elitist. But enough of that, time to address your actual argument. I agree, speed leveling is not the only way to play the game. However, unless you are doing absolutely nothing to gain xp, leveling is still super fast. I've grinded on nothing but mobs wandering around certain areas of the map, and still leveled up in around half an hour. and that is not even including quests.

Now, if you take a look at the effort it takes to get a build, especially for mid-levels. You have to grind out the item pieces you want, which is based on Luck, because there is a very small market for non-endgame items that dont have a niche in endgame builds. But once you put in the effort to achieve that build, that build would become obsolete within a few hours of playtime. It's not worth it at all. That's why people suggest you wait to endgame to start building. they are not lazy incompetent people looking to make a name for themselves like you suggest, they are just trying to tell people that its not worth it to build at that level. I agree that people looking for level 80+ builds should be able to get a build grief free, but building below that level is a complete waste of time and effort.

Basically read what I said above. its not worth building below level 80, and the reason why people are saying that is not because they are lazy incompetent shits looking to farm internet points like you suggest, but to try to tell them that it is not worth it at the level. Could it be worded better? Yes. But what they are trying to get at is that it is not worth it to build at the level.

Alright, I've said what I wanted too say on why people suggest to not build until level 100. But seriously. drop the tone. it does nothing but detract from your argument, and it cultivates more of a "bad culture" within the build community than people suggesting to wait to 100 ever will.

Pretty Hypocritical when you say to keep this thread clean when arguing after what you said earlier in the post.

 

I still don't think CSST is the problem. Most of the game (1-90+) can be completed by an experienced player in 4-6 days given long breaks, or 1-2 days given no breaks even without CSST. XP is still easy to get from quests and there are plenty of threads about maximizing XP bonus for each section of the game you're in. The only determining factor is amount of content. Personally, before the introduction of the IM team, there didn't feel like a lot of options in the lower level ranges. Items like unspeakable, marvel, call to concord, Magellan's Sail, and even in levels below 60-70, there were additions that made the game more interesting than "wow that's my 7th near perfect dravarden" (thing that actually happened to me constantly). Now looking through the items, there are a lot more options that enable players to choose combat over raw XP bonus at lower levels. Previously I agreed with the skip lower level mentality, but there isn't a need to get to the content anymore since there IS content in the earlier parts of the game now. Instead of running Dungeons for quick xp, players can grind them out with full combat builds at the INTENDED level. Personally I think that's pretty cool. Previously, if I saw someone asking for a build, I'd tell them that most builds are only made for level 90+ because that was the only way to see variety & flexibility in builds outside of just "get more mana regen and spell damage". There are better ways to get tier stack melee builds, raw spell builds, and hybrid builds at lower levels now. They shouldn't just get looked over, but everyone has been for a long time, so it's not surprising @SilverMirror . You're asking people to change

Old habits die hard. I hope to see it end, but I'm not too sure.

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All of this I agree with.
@SilverMirror 's tone was aggressive towards a part of the community that has a good reason for being pro skipping early-game builds.

 

Salutations.

You seem to base your whole argument around A- my tone and B- how it is actually pointless to make non-endgame builds, and for that, I'll break it into respective parts.

A- I took this matter pretty personally as this is something I've seen time and time again and found it very infuriating. Which is why it sounded like an immature brat instead of

that apparently some people dislike when we give formative responses. Is that a proper thing to do? probably not, but this is me being true to myself. I am self-aware enough to foresee there are certain people that would jump to point me out on that because they want to take their chances to "educate" a CT member and be happy about it, so that is why the last point is there for.

Nothing else to debate on this point other than "thank you for pointing it out and I will remember it"

B- If you saw clearly my argument actually is, you might have noticed that I did not disagree in "promoting lv 100 endgame builds coz those are better", or disagree in "level up faster for a lv100 builds is better than making a non-endgame build", becoz those are indisputable facts for the current game, which you kindly filled everyone who didn't know about it as well. However, imagine you are a novice player and making a build is something you want to do, and is a way you want to play the game with, and you make a post here, instead of proper replies, all you get is people telling you to "git gud and git lv 100 before playing the game like how you want to".

I believe people are kindly aware that a max level builds are obviously more effective than one that they wanted for their level, is it worth it is not up to you to decide, as it is their own pace of playing the game. "getting max level and being strong and rich" is not the only way how people play and view the game, there are people just enjoy this game casually, want to get a build competent enough to explore the game world with friends or do quests with.

Half of gaming is the mindset. Telling people they "think" wrong in playing a game is killing half of their fun. It is true that people can educate ways to play wynn, in fact, heck you can even tell them its not worth it, but I think it is obligatory to answer the person's request before you do so. Make their builds, and then tell them its not exactly worth it, is what I showed in my template.

All and all, my ideals does not contradict to yours. What I am stressing is simply, actually help the person with their builds before giving your own advice in how you think the game should be played.

As simple as that.

 

but it is the community's decision to make those lower level builds. You and I may want everyone to have builds at any level, but you've already stated the facts: it's

That doesn't change unless there are actual changes to how the game is played in terms of xp gain, which you aren't addressing. I agree that telling people what they think is wrong only detracts from the experience, but this isn't detracting from that experience IMO and in many others too. We aren't saying they are wrong, we're helping them see the state of the game as it is right now; players get to lvl 90+ and make builds to fight the tougher opponents. I made builds myself in order to solo CoW and others, but that was 1 time. After that I dropped the build. It is down to the user of those low level builds to decide whether it is worth making in the first place, and I just don't see the reason for a first timer to waste their limited LE on items that will be dropped within 5-10 levels. Saving for the future and planning out the second or third run with your LE, that could be fun, but I don't see how telling someone the state of the game is could harm their enjoyment. I played through my assassin again and had a lot of fun making an exile build, a scorpion build, a locrian build, and moved on from each of them. If I had started the game trying to build right away, I'd probably have developed bad building habits rather than being given the information to start with. Learning is great, but from experience my first playthrough was the longest because I spent so long killing mobs with poor builds rather than getting xp gear or doing quests. It's that simple. Everyone you are in disagreement with has come to the conclusion that telling others what they 'should' do is correct because of their own experiences. I often couple my statements to new builders with a low level build or full xp build to help guide them, but I still want them to know. That doesn't change easily because it is my opinion. Plus:

 

Alright, it seems like we are arguing despite agreeing on most of it, but there are things I would like to clear up

Alright, for this point.

• First of all, my "holier than thou" comments were not based on formatted text. They were based on an entirely different reason, and if you want to have a conversation about that, contact me in PM's because I would rather not take this thread off topic.

• Secondly, you are a member of the staff team, and that being true to yourself and ranting like that in a post is not the way to go. I know I sound like an overconfident prick punching above his position, but I don't know another way to say it.

• I'd rather not get into another argument about tone, but most people I've seen who made these responses were a lot kinder than "git gud and git lv 100 before playing the game like how you want to".

However, I do agree with most of what you said in the thread, and the template you laid out. The main reason I made the post was because I wanted to show the opposing viewpoint to the argument. @NicBOMB explained that viewpoint much better than I ever could, but people do have a reason for posting the "wait until lvl 100" comments.

 

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All true, and refer to my last reply if you're unsure of my standpoint, if you still have question on the whole "not make pre-endgame build thing" I'm unsure what you want me to expand on. If its not clear enough then I'll restate it here, you dont know why people want a pre-endgame build, maybe they are having trouble with a specific quest boss, maybe they just want to chill play the game slowly, its not up to you to decide for them. If you are up to help the person, then you can do so by giving them the build they need and then tell them it's better to level up faster.

About the progression thing, there is nothing to address. If a person is approaching the game anew, everything is not as fast as we always think it is. In fact, I'm sure a lot of us only realise the game is fast after a few runs of 1-100 and exploiting specific mechanic (eg. CSST). So while you can say "people experienced it so we're just warning them its pointless", I'd say it is only because of their experience so they understand it is fast. Perspective and perception. Does it matter ultimately at the end? It really isn't. While you may say people can level up while grinding for gears, I can say it gives people another purpose for grinding and leveling. I'm also sure we've all experienced a particular quest boss that is hard to defeat at level due to lack of good gears, while we can use a high level class to get the drop or get a friend to carry, there are other people that think otherwise.

For people like us after finishing the game for several or for me 20 classes, we are too accustomed to the pace we as the experienced players used to take the game, and how we treat the game as something to be finished, and end goal being powerful as a player and a character. We should not deny other mindsets by telling them not to do something because of how we are used to viewing the game.

I had people come to me and say "I'm lv 84 and I pvped with my friend around the same level but he seems so much stronger than I do, why?" There are several things one can say to that person, eg. PVP is not important in wynncraft. But it's not up to you to decide what is important for him is it not? At that situation all I can think of is, the other person is probably using a build and you are not. There are situations and circumstances behind everything.

All in all, I honestly have explained much more than I originally thought I would, at the end of the day I just want to see people not get disappointed after asking for help. I'm just a disembodied anime character speaking in white text, my opinion probably won't change anything as you said, old habits die hard. But as my teacher irl said to me recently, "if a habit takes 10 years to form, why not give it 10 years to correct."

 

I will admit that when I was new to class builds I told somebody to wait until they were level 100 before making a proper build. Nevertheless, this isn't something that is exactly common in class builds, but when people do come in the section asking for lower level builds they usually get told to wait until 100.

I think it really is a good idea to give a person the build they want, even if it may be lower level. After all, past level 50 there is a plethora of items that can be used to optimize a specific build. It's also important to remind them that the given build probably won't last them until higher levels. Although, a good midgame level build can still last for a while (I used barbed from undergrowth ruins dungeon to solo corrupted decrepit sewers with no real effort).

Plus, end game builds can somewhat get repetitive, so making lower level builds forces some of us to discover new items and synergies.

 

I already do that...
At least when I go onto those kinds of help threads.

That was my point, the game can be played quickly or slowly depending on how long you wanna spend on getting a build together. We've been saying that the game typically only gets faster as you playthrough, therefore it is more beneficial to just swap gear constantly as you progress instead of hoarding lower level items that will be dumped anyways. Unless you want the game to slow down that much, to where items actually matter for each level rather than 5-10, then you're gonna need 10-20 items for each level. You're trying to change how the game is played when the game itself never changed. That's the problem most people are having here. I think making builds at lower levels is great, but frankly, the pro early-game building scene is a very small niche in the community, no thanks to people eventually getting to higher and higher level ranges like 80+ and 90+. That's why I said:

Not because they're bad habits, but because they're old habits. I think telling people to make a proper build at 90+ is a fine mentality, but also coupling that with a good xp build or half xp half combat build at their level, as you said, would be best.

Main point: There's no reason to change this because it's not changing the outcome of a player's experience. Everyone goes into a video game knowing there's an end, and wynncraft is no different in that regard. It just so happens that the end can come faster than most people expect. That doesn't mean there isn't another character slot, or another class, or another build that you can try. You're attempting to incite change where the community has deemed none is necessary. We've got more content Soon™ in the form of updates and that will only further people's interests in getting to end-game content. You're trying to solve a relatively inconsequential problem. Anyone can and should help people to make builds regardless of level, but if it just so happens to be an xp build for someone just starting the game, that shouldn't cause a problem. I certainly do it, and most other builders do too.

 

Better bless up, it's not a giant wall of text that quotes another giant wall of text (which then forces me to read the original wall of text to remember the arguments and points brought up that was countered by the second giant wall of text).

The main problem:
Most players that make a lot of builds often optimize the builds that they create, regardless of level. If a level 40 requests a build, you're very likely to see legends and rares.

https://wynndata.tk/s/CmhrcG is an example build
Many items come from mob drops or loot chests. Most items are rare/legendary, just like high level builds and most of the items are from mobs/loot chests. This is troublesome because rares/legendaries are rather difficult to find (hence the name).

-One option to obtain these items is to grind. This is problematic because it then bumps you into higher levels, thus making the build less effective. -Another option is to loot run. This is also problematic because there aren't really many well known low level loot runs (only Lusuco comes to mind).

-The last option is to buy these legends/rares. This is the worst option in my opinion. I mean, Morph-Topaz already takes like 32eb (or something). Considering that most lower level players don't have tons of money to spare, this would be a bad decision.

You can try to put shop/dungeon items into your build. However, they also present similar issues. Although it's a lot easier (in my opinion) to get these items in terms of time, shop items are especially expensive and dungeon items take a lot of dungeon runs, which gives you the same issue as grinding.

I know that I sort of got off the topic, but what I was trying to say was most builds people make are too difficult to acquire, causing most people to spend too much time and money on a build that may even get outdated before you can even use it. Since most people that request a build on the forums are given builds by experienced builders that are more focused on optimizing builds rather than focusing on availability, I normally advise people against actually trying to use a build given to them on the forums. If I actually do see a build that is easy to get and pretty decent (which is pretty much never), I would actually encourage the requester to use it.

As for why I don't provide low level builds myself, I do not have the patience nor the experience to make a decent, yet easy to get build that utilizes uniques and rares rather than legends.

TL;DR: low levels requesting builds usually get optimal builds rather than decent builds that are easy to get. Since the builds aren't easy to get, people often spend either too much time, money, or end up out-leveling the builds they get before they can even acquire all the items (this happens from grinding for items or doing dungeons). So, I end up advising people against using builds that they get on forums (unless I see a build that is both easy to get and decent).

oh look, a too long; didn't read. it's not really hard to make one of these.

 

That's the problem; there isn't a real point in getting a better build before level 80/90. Besides a ToA, the Hive, and LI, you can blow past the whole game by just using normal items. Or better, you just use rares and legendaries that are 20 levels lower than you. For example, I've used Springtrap and Hashr's Claw from the Sand Swept Tomb dungeon until 60ish because it's not worth the hassle to grind dungeons or mobs for better items when those will do. And that's the thing; it's almost never worth it to grind multiple low level dungeons for legendaries or good items (unless if you're doing multiple playthroughs). But even that is an unnecessary hassle.

What by2011 was saying, it's way more practical to get random items and finish most of the game than trying to meticulously trying to spend your le and time trying to find specific items for your build. Just by playing the game normally and not doing any dungeon runs I still end up with rares and legendaries.

 

I’m not really trying to solve anything, and to me you are just viewing the whole thing overly pessimistic tbh. All you said are indeed true that I did not rebut, but you’re stressing them as if it counters my view point. As you’re not really rebutting wt I’m saying either as you said you do agree in being polite about helping the other people with their builds then there’s literally no reason for you to argue against me. You’re writing a lot but you’re not saying much. However,

You’re still using the mindset of the game being something that needs to be complete, and playing the game as a person with 5-10 classes, that is the elitist mindset that a lot of us have, but isn’t one that everyone wants. Moreover people might just be stuck in a quest and want a quick build and be done with it, what’s the point in not helping them with that. We’re also used to owning whatever we need to get through a lv1-100 playthrough, that is also not the case for most people.

You’re thinking me too highly, I’m not starting a revolution of “we must now all use builds pre endgame!”, that wouldn’t make sense for the current game. As I said before, I just want the people that asked for help to get the help they deserve, it’s not up to you or anyone to judge their motivation in doing so, everyone can go give them advice in game pacing and wtever afterwards but don’t misunderstood “giving advice becoz you want to” from “helping them becoz they asked for”

We’re getting repetitive at this point, I’ve rested my case time and time again and I don’t really see how any further discussion will be fruitful.

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I believe that is a strong reason enough, but please also check out my arguments about differences on mindset :)

 

Tbh you provided a lot of great view points my dude. While it is possible that the builds they requested usually ended up impossible to get at level, I believe is it better to at least introduce the concept of proper build making is the way to go, maybe as simple as

“Get items of Air element with IDs of ws and Air Damage with some mana and xp bonus”

Or a full on wynndata link with uniques instead of legendaries. A build doesn’t need to be always optimised but can just be something handy to use, to get by the level range/quest.

In general I think some new players don’t have the mindset of using items of same elements to synergise together, so every little bit of actual tips would matter a lot.

 

So to sum up;
You backhandedly told everyone to be better because they aren't good enough to new players in the class builds section.
Then said that

So now you've bent-over backwards just to make your theory float, and retracted most of your previous statements both indirectly through self contradiction and directly in your statements.
I said I already help people make lower level builds for combat and xp, but somehow I'm using an 'Elitist Mentality' still despite talking about my own experiences with lower level building for the EXACT situations you're using:

You're applying a broad brush to a vibrant community that is only acting the way it sees fit. Not everyone is the same, but I'm still able to share my experiences with others. If you think my actions are 'Elitist' then you're not using the right word, or you don't understand #1 your audience and #2 your image as seen in your posts. You've vilified yourself by starting out right here:

You painted the Class Builds section builders as cancerous and elitist in a post IN THE SECTION. I can't facepalm harder. You chose to tackle this operation with a sledgehammer when a scalpel would've been better. Telling an entire group of people they're wrong isn't easy, but you certainly made it harder on yourself here.

Also,

No, you're still completely missing the point of all my posts. I am on the fence for agreeing with you, mostly due to how you handled this thread in the first place, but also because you couldn't recover AND even though our mindsets are parallel, you've chosen to attack rather than educate. As an IM Team member you've got the authority to do that, but you've squandered it and gone cut-throat on your own community for a limited problem. A simple "Please assist players in making builds, regardless of level. Lower level builds are important to the game too." would've been a good start.

Lastly, I have been directly addressing every point you've been making, but I'll try and include most of it here:

You've either been ignoring all of my walls of text, or you've misinterpreted. That's a tldr /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

 

well what a nice and amazing thread this turned out to be lol
personally tho i just pretty much spam intel and mana regen and it works well enough lmao