Guild Feeding Rules Clarification (mods Read Plz)

EDIT: k wow i was gone for like 4 hours and theres 4 pages of replies. now i havent read through all of them but past the second page i can see its really just the same arguments from both sides back and forth so i think now we should all just wait for the mods to make their decisions as arguing wont actually lead anywhere

so theres this member of the guild community who keeps accusing the current ruling alliance, the Federation, of feeding.

How the alliance works is that each guild in the alliance is assigned territories whilst certain other territories are free for all. Basically what happens is whenever his opposition alliance attacks a guild's territories, if that guild is not available or not able to keep up, other guilds will step in to take the territory back for Fed, however defending it lightly so as when the guild that had been assigned those territories is available to reclaim it, they can do so easier as well as allowing the guilds that initially retook the territories to not have to waste much money defending a territory that will inevitably taken later anyway. This way, Fed can keep the opposition from gaining large amounts of territories while also not forcing their own allies to have to take forever to reclaim their assigned territories and also not bankrupting themselves. However, there is no guild in the alliance whose sole purpose is to capture territories and then allow other members of the alliance to capture it again afterward by defending lightly/not at all. The current rule about feeding is:

18. Do not use alternate guilds or sub-guilds to maintain territory.

An alternate guild doesn’t have to be owned by a person’s alternate account. This applies to any guild being used to capture territories which are then allowed to be captured by a main guild.

All guilds in Fed are equal and none are alternate/sub guilds. The whole point of the alliance is obviously to control the map and help one another. theres no point in coming to another guild's aid if they will then have to fight their own allies' mobs that are as strong as the opposition's.

This member's argument is that this counts as feeding and should not be allowed. Apparently this allows Fed to control the map? honestly i dont really see how his logic works either.
heres some excerpts of what he's said:





so basically I would like to confirm whether or not Fed's current activities count as feeding and also a specific and definitive criteria of what exactly counts as feeding

 

We're working on a rewrite for the guild rules to make them as clear as possible. Once we finish it we'll decide what to do about Federation.

Also...

These seem to contradict each other, which has me a bit confused as to whether or not Federation is intended to control the map.

 

Federation is a band of guilds that work together to keep hold of the map, yes

 

The question mark is due to the fact that someone has stated that Federation controls the map through the usage of "feeding," although we disagree.

 

Since I'm here, I'll drop my 2 cents on the topic, as I've been through plenty of wars.

There's a very grey line between outright feeding and defending lightly. Are 300 level 50 mercenaries feeding? Are 20 level 100 snipers, 20 level 100 honor guards, and 30 level 100 bishops feeding? Are 1000 level 50 mobs feeding? Often times when we begin a siege on a federation guild, we'll be attacking the guild that we originally targeted, but then we'll never see that guild that we targeted ever attack our territories. It's always other guilds in the federation attacking us, and the guild that we were originally targeting simply clearing up what the federation believes to be a 'light defense'. In spirit, this is basically feeding. Defenses are put up to not keep the land, but make sure that allied guilds can take the land faster than non allied guilds. I'll use our attack against [HoL] as an example.

We began siegeing [HoL] in the Neesak area, but after a few hours, we realized we weren't making any progress. Taking a look at the guild map, we saw a ton of [HoL] territories that we had taken being taken by [Fox], then after a short wait, they then became [HoL] territories again. After going to check it out, we were seeing defenses of 100 level 50 mobs, placed by [Fox]. So instead of just attacking [HoL], we began going after [Fox] territories that were formerly [HoL]. We breezed through the battles, and they took 1/10th the time it would take us to take [HoL] territories. [Fox] noticed, and began placing defenses of 900 level 50 mobs and 10 level 100 mobs. All of a sudden, [HoL] seemed to just give up! We made very fast progress, and within a day, we were able to end a siege that had gone on for 3 days already. You can argue that both the 50 and 910 mob defenses were both light defenses, but it's quite obvious that one is much more difficult than the other. The ability for [HoL] to take these 'lightly defended' 100 mob defenses essentially allowed the Federation (as an entity) to control the map. Once they transitioned to 910 mobs, [HoL]'s ability to retake territories diminished greatly, and we were easily able to overpower them.

Anecdotal evidence, but I'll throw it in nonetheless. Running through the Ragni area, I frequently do /guild attack to check for lightly defended territories that I can take. Many times, I've run into cases where [Fox] hasn't defended the territories at all. I've noticed other guilds that haven't defended territories, but [Fox] has a disproportionate amount of undefended territories, in comparison to other guilds. Of course, this can be attributed to [Fox] possibly warring more than other guilds, giving them more chances to forget to defend, but it definitely feels like they're trying to bend the rules on feeding.

As for this, some of Federation's newest additions [Mox] and [DDT] don't feel like they're equal to the rest in terms of warring and funding ability. Their leaders and chiefs tend to be former high ranking members of guilds in the Federation, and there are much more established guilds out there that, based on pure warring and funding ability alone, deserve a spot in the Federation more. I'd say there's a strong argument that all guilds in Federation are not equal, not in the slightest.

 

Well most of the time when I see a territory of a group in the federations being taken, other guilds such as *mainly* Fox or Imp take the territory from the opposing guild then they wait and give it back to the other guild.

 

That sounds like the definition of feeding to me .-.

 

The way i see it. Just join the federation or whatever so you can abuse the grey line. Or make the Republic and do the same thing. I wanna see an ultimate guild war. I WANT TO SEE THE WORLD BURN!!!

 

The whole point of this thread is to get rid of the grey line.

 

See this is what bothers me. Lots of people (including some mods) appear to think that Federation is doing something extremely terrible that’s never been done before. But that’s completely nonsensical.
There have been TEN alliances that I can name that have done exactly what Federation does, yet for some reason now from what I’ve heard, the mods think the alliance is unfair and seem to be considering taking drastic actions towards preventing an alliance from controlling the map.
If controlling the map is such a massive problem, how come this kind of thing has never happened before and the mods have never taken much of an interest in it until now?
It’s because there’s an extremely vocal minority that want the mod team involved in guilds to limit and restrict them constantly, but what the vast majority of people who are serious about guilds want is for the mods to just...stay out of it all.

My advice to the mod team is this: Don’t listen to the vocal minority. Because in the end they don’t represent what most people actually want for the community. And they certainly don’t represent what’s actually best for the community.

 

I can agree with this just cause why complain now when almost every time there is an alliance a guild comes together they get to know each guild member better why are you trying to destroy something the community is trying to have fun with yes every now and then their is drama but they dont hold a grudge to hate them for life and i aint saying this or agreeing with drew cause im in fox im agreeing cause it makes sense and i dont wanna see people take action for nothing wrong and if we are feeding then why is it that we use high defenses against each other wouldn't you use like 1 mob and give the other guild the territory aint trying to be rude here but ya gotta think of the obvious things that come to mind like how we arent feeding how we arent trying to control all the map that aint the entire purpose cause didnt hax control the entire map without any alliances?and the mods didn't care about it then so why now lol All in all just respecting what drew said

 

This is the problem. Federation owns 377 out of the 385 territories in the game.
When people complain, action is taken. There's probably over 100 active guilds in the game right now. It's not right that 11 guilds hold more than 95% of the map. I would say that on this issue, there's two extremes, and then there's the middle ground of people who don't care that much. You and I are on the two extremes. We're both minorities here.

Remember [Hax]? They literally caused a new rule to be added due to their dominance of the map. Also, a few lines earlier, you said you could name 10 alliances that have done the same thing (control the map), yet in this quote you say it's never happened before. Mods take interest when something is negatively impacting the game. Small guilds unable to hold any land is a negative impact on this game.

My advice to you is this: Don't give advice to the mods unless you become a mod, and don't assume things that you don't know.


And honestly, I don't think you're in any position to make opinions on what's best for the community.

 

Tbh i think in general the guild rfules need to be altered because these domineering alliances of the topmost guilds is strangling the ability for any other guilds to really enter the warring scene and give formidable competition, as there's always someone who can retake in a short matter of minutes. It's almost like they don't need to defend with any kind of effort because they always have about 3 other allied guilds who can swoop in with their players and actually defend the territory with OP mobs their high guild level can access, or just defend lazy again for potential feeding?

I'm not gonna get into a speech however, as my gripes with the guild system don't really center around this branch of the Feeding issue, but what I will say is that Federation is by NO means the only alliance that follows these kind of controversial attack and defense patterns, so don't just pick on them. The problems with the system are the system as a whole; it's the barrel, not one or two bad apples.

EDIT: HOLY **** I didnt realize it was this bad!

No wonder...

 

He said Alliances not guilds owo

 

DDT is just LEF but remade because the disappearance of the leader. And it's not war wise he meant was equal it's in power in the alliance wise. There is no way a new guild would have like 5 people in each time zone capable of warring like fox does

 

It's perfectly right and the way it should be. Guilds are based on competition, and that's how competition works.
Complaining about it is kinda like complaining about a bad mark in school, saying that "it's not right that 5 students have the best mark." It's simply not how it works, and every alliance ever so far has fallen and leadership has changed. That's more than enough proof that teamwork and effort eventually change who controls the map.
Of course it might be frustrating for some, but you can't just tell people to go lose some territories just so others can have them.

Federation didn't just appear out of nowhere, it took over from the previous alliance. At that point we could all have complained about how unfair their rule was as well, but we instead chose to focus on team efforts and were rewarded.

 

@Ascended Kitten Just because one body of people has had success doesn't mean it's a balanced system where the chance of success if fair for everyone. It's easy for you to say this seeing as how you're in one of the most powerful guilds, AND because apparently the staff are working with "Major guild leaders" behind closed doors on the updates. So far, the mob defense update has definitely disprpoportionally affected the top, such as pushing back the unlocks for mobtypes. I used to be able to defend with CoW but now I can't, and apparently he got buffed too.

...I should probably stop myself here. feel free to PM me if you want to Kitten on how one alliance holding 377 territories (and roughly that on a constant basis) doesn't raise some humongous red flags for fairness.

 

Oh boy, time to spend a pointless amount of time inspecting a post when I could be doing better things with my life (like finishing the cheese cubes next to me, yum)

Here we go...

1: I disagree, as it still takes at least a minute to take the territory, and considering most guilds we, ahem "feed" to don't have many war capable people, it's much likelier that it'll be one person soloing the territories to reclaim for their guild, equating to it more probably being three minutes per territory. Doesn't seem like feeding when I could take a 50 mob GMY territory in far less time which mind you is what they defend with every time, 50 mobs
2: No, that's literally what 90% of both side's guilds use for FFA territories (most guilds in Fed do, and CNM has been doing in your alliance, more probably would if they actually took ffas)
3: No, again, going back to the time thing, this takes at least three and a half minutes to take, and on average, assuming the guild is one with a weaker war front and usually solos territories, this would take eight and a half minutes if you are a perfect human being that kills everything the exact second it spawns.

Honestly, that'd be impressive.

Yeah, because you guys seem to have a fondness for attacking at insane hours (2AM EST? /WHO DOES THIS/) where the smaller guilds usually don't have any support. If you try and attack during the day (Lets use ERN for example here), you guys get beat back successfully most of the time. Of course we have to step in and assist them, having four guilds target one guild all at once is kinda overwhelming and would lead to a swift defeat without ally help, wouldn't it? It's pretty simple really.

Also, as for a 'light defense', yes, we do use light defenses on allied territories, because we know that they'll be claimed by the guild who is supposed to own them anyway, and rather soon, so why spend thousands of emeralds pointlessly knowing that when you could save money for your guild instead?

jp has literally said "defenses aren't meant to hold land, they're just meant to stall for time", so this entire point is kinda invalidated. Sorry fam.

Oh dear god. Okay, so, allow me to explain this. HoL is weak. Very weak. Their leader is gone, and they have zero war presence now. This happened when I myself went into HoL to try and help revive them, and I ended up soloing alot, along with GalaxyDono soloing a lot. If you can find one logical way that a guild with one person that takes 8.5 minutes to take a territory can keep up with a guild that can do them in 3.5 minutes, enlighten me. Otherwise, yes, we're going to send in allies to help out. The entire point of an alliance is to help our allies and stay in power. So, when Fox had the opportunity to help out HoL by defending a little light to keep BCr and HoL at equal paces, they took it. It's not feeding, it's simply just trying to help out a guild that isn't able to war at the same pace as a larger one due to lack of members.

Tell me, when/if Round Table controls the map, will you guys just sit on the sidelines and watch if we attacked one of your guilds full force instead of stepping in to help?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Yeah they gave up, because Fox just ended up being forced to defend with the same amount of mobs you guys did. Making that illegal literally invalidates the entire point of having guilds to help you out.

Correction, one takes more time than the other. If HoL had three people warring, the territories would both take a negligible time. But they don't. Whoops?

Yes it allows us to control the map.. Do you understand the point of an alliance? They're made to take control or hold control of the map. If we didn't help each other out, what would be the point of being allies anyway? Of course we want to stay in power, why else would we be allies (ignoring the fact that perhaps its a community type thing, like SDU and Fux).

You answered your own question probably, though we have had some new captains recently. We do have a specific defense for allied territories (Hell, you literally stated it early, 900 lv50 mobs and 10 lv100s), and if that isn't put, the captain that's warring isn't doing their job. If you know who this person is that's not defending territories or find out who, feel free to shoot me (Goden#5121 on discord) or BlueFire28, the Fox warteam leader (BlueFire28#8926) a dm with the name of the person and we'll get it handled (or I'll just relay it to blue if you choose to speak to blue, whatever).

Point is, this shouldn't be happening, and we don't want it to be happening. Apologies. We aren't trying to bend the rules on feeding though, BECAUSE THERE ARE NO RULES ON FEEDING.

Firstly, DDT is LEF reformed. It was never out of the Federation, they just wanted a new leader, so LEF got disbanded and just remade. It's basically the same thing as how ASF was in Fed, disbanded to change the guild's name, and reformed as Ari. They never were out of the federation, they just changed a bit.

As for Mox, it was formed by a former Imperial captain, and then later another Imperial captain joined in. No chief has left a guild to join Mox, as far as I'm aware.

Lastly, yeah, Mox isn't exactly the strongest guild out there, but the thing is that Mox applied to be in Federation. Other guilds could be in Federation too, but they haven't applied. We don't come to you to ask you to be in the alliance, you have to come to us (contrary to Round Table, might I add). If you own a high leveled guild and care to join us, feel free to shoot @Drew1011 a dm and ask him for the application.

I don't get why people keep complaining that Federation is so exclusive. The only reason you /can't/ join it is if A) you're in another alliance or B) your guild or guild members have excessively trash talked Federation guilds (cough, BCr .-.).

Or maybe I'm just completely wrong and Federation is evil and should die.
Whatever.

 

Just because something has worked doesn't mean that's how it should work. Guilds should be based on fair competition, or at least that's the impression that I get from reading the rules. Complaining about what we see as unfair competition is fair game, and if the mods say we're dumb and it's fair competition, then fair game, guess we're not putting in enough effort.

The fact that every alliance ever so far has fallen is a moot point. I can say "every American government up to now has fallen and leadership has changed", but it doesn't mean a thing. Time moves on, and things break. It doesn't mean that it was due to good things, or that it was due to bad things. Hax fell after the rules were rewritten to encourage fair competition. Does that not make an example?

 

WOOOO! GO GODEN