The Melee Damage Theory.

(Note: Like 80% of this thread is based off my observation, which may be off in a couple spots)
(Also note: The builds shown here aren't "meta-defining" nor am I defining all of them as good builds, I'm just using them as examples)

For a while now, there's been this odd mindset around Melee builds in general. The general mindset that if a melee build isn't entirely boosted by +tier attack speed and doesn't reach 10,000 DPS, it's basically a joke. The idea that melee will never even compare to spell damage unless the build is complete and utter glass.

I want to alleviate, or at least try to alleviate these stereotypes around melee builds, and also show that melee builds don't need to be complete glass to do good damage.

Of course, I am by no means saying that melee is in a perfect spot, there are some issues (Pure Fire/Earth anyone?). But that is not what this thread is about.


Under 10,000+ DPS =/= unusable
Let's start from the "bottom".
With this build.
What a shitty build, only 2 tier boosting items, no LI items, the -140 air defense makes it unusable, and fucking Magnitude! Looks like it's the Item Buyer's lucky day! WOOP DEE DOO
This build was made to attempt to emulate what a more "low end endgame melee build" would look like.
... An average of 4574 DPS seems pretty bad, but look at the term "DPS" closely. Damage. Per. Second. According to Wynndata this build can dish out that much damage in a second, which means that continuously attacking for 2 seconds will have dished out roughly 9,000~ damage (assuming you had really good IDs on some of the items of course...). Considering the fact that most enemies you'll be fighting at that level's build have 7000-9000 HP, that's... not that bad.
Of course, bosses will be a bit trickier with this build. But at it's fastest, you could theoretically kill a 200,000 HP boss in roughly 44+ seconds (assuming you didn't need to stop to heal + other factors). Which again, really isn't that bad.
And remember, this build is pretty low-end in terms of melee output.
Now lets up the ante with this build.
Already this build shows major improvement in damage while still maintaining good HP and... subpar defenses. (Notice that neither of these builds have Centipede)
Remember all the things I just said about 4574 DPS being pretty good, now multiply that by almost 2.
Of course, there's also the Earth powder special to keep track of in terms of even more damage output. (And Exploding?)
... And then there's the beast itself. (totally didn't take this one from Wynn Discord). But let's not get too sidetracked, after all, this section is about how melee DPS under 10,000 isn't that bad.
Note that these builds all use Warrior weapons, Assassin weapons tend to have more DPS overall than Warrior so...


"Slow attack speeds + tier attack speed is the only way to go"
Another trend I see are people always using very slow, super slow, and occasionally slow weapons and stacking +tier attack speed with them only, and... I won't deny that that's the most optimal way to go in terms of pure melee output. But that doesn't mean naturally normal/fast melee weapons are completely useless. If anything it allows for interesting combinations of + tier and - tier items. Like these builds for example:
Build 1
Build 2 (How the fuck is this also getting 10k uppercuts?!)

And on the other hand, not all of melee is reliant is +tier attack speed, some builds rely on being Super Slow for stuff like super slow chain lightning. (Best thing ever)
Stinger also exists and is pretty good.

Spoiler: Stinger

This build probably sucks ass, but I'm proud of it because it's 7k DPS on a super slow weapon damn it. https://wynndata.tk/s/x4CVpQ ...How does this one also have decent spell damage!?

(And yes I know Rainmaker exists...)

The "Melee and Spell discrepancy"
(Warning: lots of observation-based statements on my part)
"But Cruuk, why should I even concern myself with melee DPS when I can achieve even better damage with spells?"
That's a good question Mr. 50,000-multihit-10-health-Cataclysm-build, your name is hard to say really fast but what's even harder is answering that question, to an extent...
Are you with me here? Alright.
In a way, melee attacks are the fastest type of contact damage there is (other than bows?). When it comes to melee, all you have to do is... Press 1 button, and if anything is in front of you, you've already done damage to it. Spells, even the fast ones, still require you to do the mouse combinations to cast them (unless you're using one of those mods that allow to bind a spell to 1 key...).

Yes, it's no surprise by now that some spells are faster and/or deal more damage than others. But my big question is: How do those compare to simple melee contact damage? Which ones have faster contact damage? Which ones do more damage over time than melee when used continuously? That's what I'm here to figure out.

"Contact speed" definition: The speed of the first hit and how fast it hits the enemy as soon as the player does the "response" (whether it's a button press, etc.) needed to trigger the function (whether it's melee or spell).
"Continuous usage" definition: How easy it is to keep using the same spell on an enemy and still get efficient damage.

(This is assuming binds are used to cast the spell instantly without clicking the right and left mouse buttons, otherwise melee would beat all in pure contact speed)
(Also, remember this isn't only about DPS but also about how fast the first hit can hit the enemy. Super Slow and Super Fast are very different DPS-wise, but IIRC have the same "contact speed" when hitting enemies)
Warrior:

• Bash: Damage is pretty instant when used, along with hitting enemies again afterwards. I'd say this one is superior to melee contact speed and to an extent, DPS if they're on equal ground. Though unlike melee you can't bash forever... (The same goes for all spells)
• Charge: This one is tricky as contact speed is based on distance, and even then you'd have to basically flail around you enemy to get continuous usage with Charge. So... I'd say Melee wins here.
• Uppercut: It seems Uppercut's massive damage output makes it superior to melee in terms of raw damage. But sort of like Charge contact speed is also affected by distance, since the "ground rupture" thing created by Uppercut isn't instantaneous, and even then it takes just over a second for the mob to go up into the air and quickly come back down. I'd say Melee wins in contact speed. In terms of damage? It depends really.
  
• War Scream: War Scream is fast but the damage is pretty small, in terms of contact speed... It's also based on distance, but since I've never had the war scream projectile hit a mob right next to me (unless it was a in a corner), so I'd say melee wins.

Mage:

• Heal: No.
• Teleport: Teleport rivals melee in terms of contact speed, but continuous usage is where it falters, if you TP to an enemy, then TP in the same direction as the first TP, then that second TP won't hit your terget, requiring you to keep aiming your TPs. And TP doesn't do extreme damage so I'd say Melee barely wins?
• Meteor: Meteor is powerful but melee dominates it in terms of contact speed, in terms of damage? Again it depends.
• Ice Snake: Contact Speed is based on distance, and it's not exactly a huge source of damage. Melee wins this one.

Archer:

• Arrow Storm: This one... Is difficult to figure out. Contact speed is based on distance but damage is also based on distance since you need to get real nice and close for maximum damage output... Uhh, It depends?
• Escape: It takes a bit of time for the player to fly up and then use stomp to deal damage, Melee wins in contact speed.
• Arrow Bomb: Contact speed, again, is based on distance. However even at the closest distance possible melee still barely wins in contact speed, I think...
• Arrow Shield: This one definitely contends with melee in contact speed, but Continuous usage is it's biggest weakness as when enemies get in contact with it, it knocks them back pretty far. melee wins overall.

Assassin:

• Spin Attack: Instant contact speed, great Continuous usage, good damage output. Probably the spell that is most superior to melee out of all of them (OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT USING IT TOO FAST GIVES YOU REALLY BIG SLOWNESS FOR A SECOND DUE TO SPIN ATTACK'S ABILITY TO ABSORB EFFECTS, WITH YOU ABSORBING THE SLOWNESS YOU GAVE TO A MOB) This was apparently fixed recently according to @aa. But remember... You can't cast it forever.
• Vanish: I said no.
• Multihit: This one also contends, maybe even beats melee, same goes for total damage output to an extent (nothing can beat true glass cannon Cataclysm...). Though Continuous usage is it's biggest weakness when up against melee.
• Smoke Bomb: Smoke bomb deals heavy damage but melee definitely wins in terms of contact speed.

(This section researching melee vs. spell is assuming that a "true hybrid" build is used, or hell, maybe even a "build" that's literally only a Normal weapon)
In conclusion, it seems that if on equal ground melee and spell are relatively equal...
What was the point of comparing every spell to melee other than try and prove my point? Well...

The "Melee Damage Theory"
Other than attempting to showcase that you don't have to go full glass to make a decent melee build, the biggest reason I made this thread was because of a few questions that have been ringing across my head concerning melee in general.
"If one build does 8,000 average melee DPS, and another build does 10,000 average Uppercuts, which one will do more damage overall over a span of say, 7 seconds? Perhaps the melee one..."

"But If one build does 5,000 average melee DPS, and another build does 10,000 average Uppercuts, which one will do more damage this time?..."

"How much melee DPS is needed to be on par with a good Tidebinder spell build? Do you really need to go full glass and stack +tier attack speed to very fast+ to contend with that? It'd seem like 6,000+ is enough to contend...? I think you only need to "tier attack stack" to Normal speed for non-Mythic weapons, that start at very slow/super slow for that..."

"Is it even possible to find the melee DPS equivalent of average non-Mythic endgame spell builds? Considering how different spells are in speed..."

"Did I leave my oven on?"
---------
Even if these questions can be answered... My point still stands.

Spoiler: Hmm..

Took me a while to figure out on what to put after "Even if these questions can be answered"...

Miscellaneous
"Low level melee is useless"
Not quite, I think there are ways for melee to work even at the lower levels, like this. (Uses a tier 2 thunder powder instead of T6!)
It's DPS is 317 (307 with T1 Thunder powder), and from my research level ~20 mobs like the ones in Saint's Row and Ancient Nemract tend to have 140-160 HP, and the Underworld Crypt guardian has around 800 HP... I'd say 300 DPS is pretty damn good.

Melee build at level 38
944 DPS at level 38... I'd say that's pretty good. No actually, I think that's really good! If I remember correctly mobs in the desert have like... 200-300+ health? That build seems to be able to kill most normal mobs in 1 hit. Hell, the enemies in the Olux Swamp have around 1000+ health. This level 38 build can kill them in just barely over a second! If my math is right that is...

"Melee Mage is bad"
While Mage really isn't about melee, and it's weapons tend to have lower-ish damage, that doesn't mean it's worthless for melee.
Have people forgotten Mage's has the second longest melee range out of any class? Obviously Archer has the longest but unlike Archer, that puff of magic smoke Mage shoots out can hit multiple enemies at once, making it even more ideal for IDs like lifesteal and mana steal.
Also, what's interesting to me is that Gaia is the only Earth Mythic that has -spell, while the others don't have -spell. Maybe that's why it gets so much flak? I honestly don't understand the flak... Look at the damage it can do and remember everything I just said about Mage's melee range.

"Melee Archer is (mostly) bad" When you think about it "melee archer" taken out of context is odd, to say the least...
I'm not as thoroughly familiar with the general discussions and opinions of melee Archer, so I can't really make a statement as substantiated as the Melee Mage section. All I'll say is... I think it still works. Despite Archers being able to only 1 target with melee their bows have damn good damage so I think it can work. We can't forget about how far they can shoot those arrows as well...
----------

Well... I hope I've convinced at least someone that the state of melee isn't hanging by a thread. Maybe the general consensus of melee builds was actually the complete opposite of what I've interpreted, and that I'm the one who has the unhealthy mindset? Who knows, I don't. If anything I hope this was at least thought-provoking to you.

You know. At the very foundation of this system I think Spell damage truly is superior to melee overall. But I made this thread to try and show the world that melee damage doesn't have to be extremely inferior to spell damage, from the lowest levels to endgame. Maybe one day the two damage types can stand on equal ground?

TL;DR: Melee isn't 90% dead dummy.

 

This was fixed recently

Oh and good post, there’s so many good melee weapons out there but no one uses them because they don’t have slow- attack speed boosted to super fast.

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this is big news for me
the days are over of constantly hopping like am idiot to prevent getting stuck

 

Added an extra little tidbit on the bottom of the thread (Above the TL;DR)

Also added a small clarification under the "melee vs spell" section.

 

Weapon with faster attack speeds could be effective with raw melee damage. The DPS at first does look great, but it doesn't matter because neutral damage penetrates any elemental defense.

 

Spoiler: Successful melee build?

 

self advertisement located

 

It's in a spoiler alert, take full responsibility on click.

 

Very nice post with quite nice opinions. Personally, archer melee being single target is a pretty interesting take, and allows for weapons like Rainmaker or Island Sniper, which would probably be broken if the melee was AoE, to exist.

 

The main problem I see with melee is that strong melee items usually dole out big penalties to either your spell damage or health. Items like Dune Storm, Centipede, Makani, and Quick Strike leggings all penalize your health, while items like CoI, Centipede again, Blood Moon (ik it's not ingame), Horizon, Battleground Dancer, Barbarian, Ignition, Burnout, The Rainmaker to an extent, Clock Boots, Alka Cometflinger, Big Arm, Wall Breaker, Gaia, Limbo, and, I believe, Conrupt All give spell damage penalties. Meanwhile the only few spell damage items that penalize your melee damage are Ehoole Drakeskin, Aquarius, Nirvana, and Aphotic, while the only items that penalize health are Makani (again), Anamnesis, and Capricorn, to a lesser extent. This means you can still dole out a decent amount of melee damage with spell builds while also having a load of spells.

Spells also give affects like slowness and blindness, which make it a lot easier to survive with them. Because of that, on assassin especially, simply alternating spells, usually spin and smoke bomb, is enough to reach a consistent damage output that tends to outpace melee damage, affects a wider area, and greatly increases survivability

 

im gonna fucking destroy your whole thread with two words:
carpal tunnel

no actually, really nice thread, but your spell assumptions are obviously biased and false, as each spell will do differently with different weapons. Like, if i'm using cata, with thunder damage stacking gear, melee will get like what? ~21k DPS. HOWEVER, since spells do elemental base damages, and I have a shit load of thunder stacking, I can get 40k spins, and if I key bind, then you will kill near anything before you are out of mana.

also spells can be used in more than one way, and melee can't
bunch give slow/blindness, so godly
spin attack fucking steals all the goods they own and freezes them
multihit gets them the fuck outta the way, and so does arrow shield/war scream
ice snake freezes
teleport teleports you
heal fucking heals you
meteor does after-burn damage
vanish takes aggro off of you
smoke bomb builds a literal wall


spells actually do shit, and melee doesn't work worth shit if the enemy is fast

 

Actually war scream doesn't do that anymore, they "fixed" it

 

wait war scream doesn't knock them half way into next week?
goddamnit i can't complain about assassin being the worst class anymore

 

The point of this thread wasn't to say melee is actually better than spells, I even said the opposite of this at the bottom.

Even if melee is inferior to spell damage, it doesn't have to be completely useless. I believe there's at least a niche for melee in this system. Life steal, Mana steal (I can't be the only one who finds it really satisfying to hit multiple enemies with lifesteal/mana steal), super slow chain lightning, etc. I also find going melee kind of... fun? Using an extremely powerful Idol spell build gets boring after a while for me, so going melee is a good alternative for me.

Hell, just a bit after making this thread I created a new Warrior where I'm only focusing skill points on Strength (primary), Dexterity, and Agility (both secondary), with no focus on spells at all (obviously) as more of a fun challenge. Scary, I know.

 

yeah, yeah, melee has rights too

but spells have more rights

they have secondary effects

the hell does melee have? carpal tunnel

also, 15k MYTHIC dps isn't much, considering that non-mythic, spell-focused builds can get like 14k+, AND spell benefits

melee needs to be buffed, it just isn't worth it right now

 

Or... Spells could be nerfed. (Mainly the stunlock stuff)

@Pokextreme

 

assassin sucks enough already

spells are balanced because they cost mana, but melee needs a buff

 

Bumpo lumpo.