Serious Debate: Was The Pre Gavel Item System Better?

I don't see what's wrong with mana steal. Mana regen is just more reliable. It might be bad for you if you are using a super fast weapon.

 

Mana regen would be more significantly more useful and reliable if it was done as mana every second, rather than every 4

 

My build has around 11-12 mana regen, literally any build with mana regen would become incredibly OP if it was changed to every second, just look at Bonder.

 

I don't really think getting 3 mana / sec instead of 12 mana / 4 secs is game breaking

 

I don't know about the item system-I feel like that's purely preference- but the gameplay is just a lot better due to the fact that it actually exists

 

I feel like pre-Gavel item system is better (and nostalgic) and will stay that way until they start balancing out the Gavel item system with powders. I prefer endgame where everyone is equal.

 

Powders are already here and they are fine. It's mostly mythics and the warrior life steal bug that need to be fixed.

 

Shit, I didn't know you were referring to that one suggestion, I'm dumb.

But... Powders are already in the game?

^^^

 

I may as well weigh in my opinion here since I'm one of the "Veterans" of Wynncraft.

I may as well clarify two things here:
1. I never reached Endgame pre-Gavel. I tried my damn hardest grinding level after level every day in the Herb Cave on my main class, Ninja, though the most I could climb up to was Level 66. I did however have a single piece of the Endgame set, Stalagmites.
2. I exclusively avoid the Player Market. The few times I've obtained a widely desirable item (, or an item that has very good IDs) and tried to set up a shop, I've simply found it awkward and hard to sell it, even more so to keep the thread active to try and get people to look at it. On the flipside, I've probably only bought one or two items that I've forgotten about because the player market is extortionately expensive.

Now I've done that:

Personally, I like the new item system more than the old one. This is not to say I think the old one is worse, nor to say that I think the new one is perfect. I think they both have flaws.

With the old item system, progression was very linear. The path of items was always singular, as the most important thing was the basic stats: Damage and Defence. Identifications were simply a possibly powerful add-on which changed the playstyle of the game. If there was an item that had one point more in Damage/Defence than your current item, even if it lacked more powerful identifications, that was the next item you'd use. This did give a nice feel of progression to the game, as it allowed the classic MMORPG "bully" scenario where you could go back to an area where the enemies had constantly killed you at a lower level and utterly destroy them without being touched simply because you'd become so much stronger than they were. As well as this, the progressive feel always made every level feel special in some way, even if you didn't get a new ability from it, because you could then equip the next, better item and become more powerful.

However, this singular, progressive route generally made everyone the same. This would mean that if there was someone 20 levels higher than you, you'd almost certainly lose more times than win in a battle with them, simply because they had better gear. There was no weak point or special counter to a higher level, other than an even higher level. However, as it has been discussed in this thread (while I have not personally experienced it), this means that people with the best possible endgame set were so evenly matched it was up to the skill of the other person to beat their opponent. This means that no player can gain a natural advantage over the other, since it's all skill based. The only way to counter your opponent was to simply be more experienced in the game with a sprinkling of luck on your side.


In the new system, progression is no longer one single path, it's a branching one. You can specialise in one element and gain the benefits of it (Such as speed and fast yet weak attacks with air, or slow, powerful attacks with Earth) while being weak to it's counters. Or, you can specialise in multiple elements and gain the benefits at a slightly reduced amount from both of them. As well as this, there's basically no limit to what elements can be paired together, because of the sheer variety of items. If you want to specialise in elements that naturally oppose each other, then you can. There are so many new items to cover all of the combinations and elemental synergies, you're more likely to find two or items for your level that have different statistics and are all equally good, it's just a matter of which one you think best suits you. This also means that there's no straight path to victory, nor one 'best' build, just many builds that are better than others in some aspects while having weaknesses in others. If someone specialises in one or two elements, then you can get items to defend against those elements and deal extra damage to their weak points. Following this, it also means that at endgame, you can perfectly counter someone and easily kill them, while at the same time, another person can easily kill you with the correct build. The variation in items and builds create so many different ways to play and fight. As well as this, you can very easily grind mobs by dealing damage in the element they're weak to, quickening the process of XP gain from grinding and allowing you to feel even more powerful over those specific mobs, as opposed to simply whittling down their health slowly.

However, the problem with this comes with the 'Super Bosses' which are simply immune* to all types of elemental attack, throwing a wrench in the works of the system; as well even simple enemies and regular bosses you encounter that have strong defence against your element or require their element weakness to be used to be killed. When I first started out with my new class to properly experience Gavel, I used the same method I did pre-Gavel, a 'Jack of all trades' approach (Now more considered 'Rainbow'). I spread my points evenly across all skills, my logic being 'I could put a lot of points into defence so I wouldn't take very much damage, but then I wouldn't deal very much attack. But if I put all my points in attack, I'd be killed very easily since I have no defence. But if I put all my points into both of those, my spells will be really expensive because I won't have any intelligence etc. etc.' For a while, this worked out, as I managed to experience Gavel with the same amount of mob-crushing power I had pre-Gavel. I soon ran into a problem I like to call "Item Stacking" however, wherein some items are reliant on others to work. This meant that when I found an item I thought would be better for me, I couldn't use it, because I didn't have enough points to both wear it in the first place without the item it was replacing, as well as other items I had on me or I simply didn't have enough points overall to meet the requirements for it. This is when I took the approach of following only two main elements, Air and Thunder.

Despite the game pushing you toward following a small set of elements, the problem is, as I said, with Super Bosses and mobs immune to your damage. You may have a lot of power in your elements, however that simply won't cut it when it comes to these bosses and enemies. In the case of Super Bosses, you need to specialise in neutral damage to kill them, a damage type that has been weeded out and weakened since nothing is immune to it. Whereas in the old system, your ability to kill a boss or mob was limited by your determination and level, in the new system, you need to have the right set of elements, and with super bosses, you simply need to have a lot of neutral damage, throwing the entire elemental system out of the window. Not only this, but having high neutral damage also disregards the elemental defences of players, leading to the infamous 'Rainbow Tank' builds which are immune to all types of elemental damage (which most people will have) and can deal masses of damage to others.

In conclusion, the old system gave a very linear path to follow, but sacrificed diversity as an item a level higher than another was generally better. The new system allows a large, sprawling number of paths to follow, but has its problems when facing enemies and bosses you can't damage since you're not dealing the right damage type to them, whereas in the old system nothing was immune to your attacks, they just took a bit longer to kill.

*Super Bosses are not completely immune to elemental attacks, as you can deal enough damage to them to actually hurt them in an element. However, the low amount of damage you output through this as opposed to neutral damage is generally ineffective unless you're dealing insane amounts of damage in the first place (*cough* Mythics *cough*).

 

I'm not going to read any of the other comments to this, just so they don't influence my initial thoughts.

My two cents in this is that the gavel update fundamentally changed Wynncraft. Whether this was a good or bad thing depends on if you like the game it became. If you enjoyed a fairly equal meta with a definite best achievable item, then you liked pre-gavel. If you enjoyed playing a more varied item set that fits your playstyle, then you enjoyed post-gavel.

I personally stopped playing post-gavel, because the charm of the game left for me. Instead of a slightly campy pseudo-MMO, you had a fairly high strategy game which was both becoming more unique and less original. This was a good step for the team to take, I'm not denying that. It just wasn't the game I had wanted to play. The post gavel system isn't better, it's just different. The real question is which system would you rather play?

 

I, on the other hand, have read through this entire thread.
This has given rise to the usual inner conflict, younger me with the rose-tinted glasses of pre-gavel, and rational, mature me.
Nostalgia is a very powerful thing, but my logic is telling me that this new item system is much better.
On paper.
Now, listen to me, I'm not saying the old item system was better.
there may have been more skill involved in high level fights but PVP was never an integral part of the game, and I don't think it will be for a very long time, if ever.

My point is that the new item system holds promises of being able to adjust to whatever playstyle you want to, and, if you put enough effort into said playstyle, eventually mastering it.
With most gear, this promise holds true, especially before you hit the mythic tier.
You slowly acquire items, replacing them with ones that you best judge to fit your chosen playstyle. Unique, Rare, and the occasional Legendary items slowly come in and out, helping you get closer and closer to your perfected interpretation of how you want to play.

Endgame, at first seems reasonable.

All items tiers up to legendarily remain accessible, and through play one is generally able to attain a reasonable amount of them.
Even if you don't, you can still find them being traded in the player market.
It's really the same as pre-gavel's endgame set, in terms of best legendaries, in that you buy what suits you the best and you are able to do it.

The problem, however, is Mythics.
Now, I'm not saying this in a whiny "i want mythic too plz" way, no.
Mythic items are supposed to be the final tier, the pinnacle of their respective builds.
You know what? They are. they fill this role in a spectacular fashion.
The problem comes when you factor in their rarity compared to legendaries, which are, if i recall, 1/500 to ~1/142,000

This seems like quite a bit of effort required for what should be the next tier in a logical progression.
However, do to people eventually getting some, and wanting to be the best, they are still used for they who can afford them.
This leaves a massive gap in price for these items, for example, pure, worse than most, if not all similarly leveled legendaries, still goes for 20-30 LE.

That's the price of a high-tier legendary.

ON PURE.

yeah.
At this point, mythic prices are dictated less by how strong they actually are, and more by rarity.
While rarity is healthy, what isn't healthy is these items being your best choice for builds, an item which you can only get via strokes of luck.
You can loot all the chests you can get, grind for ages, but a number like 1/142,000 just isn't likely for most players.



Tl;DR
Long rant you don't need to care about which eventually focuses into the point that Mythics are way too rare for their power level, so bring up their droprate to something reasonable like 1/20,000.

 

If the admins did that, the entire economy will be nuked like Hiroshima and a lot of mythic owners will feel cheated for losing so much LE since their gear wouldn't be worth anywhere near it was. Believe me, I once suggested that they change mythic armor to legendary, but this was the major flaw of it. The admins can never decrease the rarity of mythics without the whole economy crashing.

 

it will barely effect the economy, it will only decrease mythic prices

 

IMO Gavel made items interesting and unique, mythics, however, ruined everything.

 

How then? Here's my original thread I made about mythic armor.
https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/change-mythic-armor.198569/#post-2392886
It pretty much sums up why you can't mess with the rarity of mythics, especially since they are so high priced. Not to mention the many mythic owners that would be screwed if mythic prices dropped.

 

you can always mess with the rarity of items, price doesn't matter.
it wouldn't really screw anyone over, some peeps will "loose" a couple of stacks but that's it

 

Tell that to the people that replied to my thread. And again, what do you mean it doesn't mess with the price, how? And no, if mythic rarities were dropped that significantly HM the Nether proposed, their price would be at least a 1/10 of what it was. So if you bought a strati for 90 stacks and then the rarity was decreased by that much, you would loose about 81 stacks... So not anywhere near a couple of stacks, though I'd say that definitely screwed that person over. To give you an example, look at Pumpkin Masks and Mama Zomble's memory. Before they were duped, they were worth stacks upon stacks like mythics. Now their price isn't any where close to where it was.

 

Pumpkin helms were worth a stack each but they are a collectable with no use so the price doesn't matter.
If mythics would be more common the price wouldn't change that much because the demand is still huge.
And as to the players that will "loose" some Le if they bought a mythic just to resell it then that's what's rotten about the market and imo you should only but items you want to use

 

Tell that to the people that were hoping to sell their collectibles like @ectoplasmaticgoo and see how they felt about the duping. Or any of the people that replied to my thread. Price DOES matter, and when you increase the supply by decreasing their rarity, this is what happens. Except with mythics, that actually have a use, people would be even more outraged.

I do agree that scamming is a rotten thing to do, but that doesn't mean then we should punish people who grinded months for mythics or people who got tired of their mythics and they wanted to get back their money. If they tried to sell their mythic after the rarity nerf, they would feel cheated for doing nothing wrong. Anyways, we don't live in a world where people buy and sell the same item at the same price. Even if they weren't trying to scam someone, prices fluctuate base off of the supply and demand and in this context buffs and nerfs to certain mythics.

The reason why mythics are one of the few items that sell for stacks besides collectibles is exactly because of their rarity. That's why most mythic bows still sell for stacks even though they are worse than legendaries! Or even mythic armor! Again, look at my thread and the arguments people presented to me. I initially wanted to decrease the rarity too, until I realized how damaging it would be.

Finally, decreasing mythic rarity would also defeat the whole purpose of mythics. As Selvut stated, they are supposed to be the "jackpot." If the rarity was decreased by as much as HM said, everybody would want to use them and the game would become even more absurdly easy.

 

I don't consider mythics a symptom of the new item system since they could have been implemented similarly in pre-gavel.