Once And For All, Is Cluster Actually Better Than Az? (read Thread Before Replying)

So for a long time, whenever someone asked for an endgame Az build, people would just give a generic response about fully thunder-powdered Cluster being better. We all pretty much accepted this as true, even if not everyone liked it.

However, recently, I've noticed some people (can't remember who now, RIP) replying that while Cluster looks better on paper, when tested in-game, Az consistently gives better results.

I don't personally understand all the math behind this, but I'm pretty sure it's related to the fact that elemental damage conversion from spells is calculated before powders is.

Can someone with more authority than me on this subject give me a more decisive answer on this?

Edit: Removed a bit about damage calculations, because I might have been remembering something wrong.

 

its because of powders being kinda of broken something to do with clusters neutral being converted to thunder when Az already has thunder damage so it does more damage somehow.

 

You've nailed it. After all, Thunder is heavily reliant on % buffs.

 

Basically yes. Elemental damage conversion is higher on Cluster, being fully neutral. With the high dex on a thunder build you get a lot of thunder damage boosts, so Az, with its very high base thunder damage, deals a lot more. I've calculated it and I don't know what damage calculations you are talking about because mine tells me Az is better. Even in melee dps, which is surprising. I'm not sure how @motoki1 's melee dps calculator works (thanks anyway, I hate calculating by hand).

 

Yeah that was just me remembering stuff wrongly, I think.

 

Though at this point, its 100% fact Az does more, I feel cluster is still better for its ids, being that they are, well fairly good.

 

People input the damage on their weapon as shown on it, instead of how it is before neutral is converted plus the bonus thunder damage. That's why they get much higher numbers than what actually happens.

Cluster has better melee tho?

 

Nope, according to modtoki's dmg calculator Az has 10 more melee dps (lol).

 

Az has a slight bit of extra Dex and Thunder %, but in the long run that shouldn't matter too much, especially in the case of melee.

 

Yep, but the damage calculator tells me it does more melee than cluster :D

 

I mean on its own, yea Az is going to do more melee due to id boosts, but over the long run (making a build), those id boosts won't be too significant.

 

I see, that's probably true.

 

Now the real question... Hive vs Az

 

Assuming Wynndata is working properly, Az has much better max damage, but Hive has a lower minimum damage, and thus slightly better median damage.