Are Element Tanks Balanced?

You can just use one per class...? .-.

 

But i have to replace others with something.

 

There are a ton of other good items in the game. Try using some of those maybe...

 

Either you change your build or you find stuff that is decent replacements .-. There are things other than elemental tank that are viable you know .______.

 

You forgot mage, but that's for another place
I think that we need to include a little bit of each idea to work well. Increase the sp to about 40-45/element, add ~50 negitive defences to the unused elements, lower the positive elemental defences a little(looking at you boreal-patterned) and possibly add a minor set system. I don't think there is 1 win all situation.

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Ideally not useless, but nerfing the synergy for sure

 

Don't you think that's slightly overkill?

You want it to have a lot higher requirements for lower stats and you can't wear any of them together because then it's counter-productive. They're meant to be good alone, but you're nerfing that aspect as well, almost to gravity levels.

 

Ya, looking at that again it seems a bit much, I'll tweak the numbers a bit

 

That seems a bit extreme all things considered since it would limit them to highly specialized builds, if they do get an increased req it should be something more like 35 or 40.

 

It should be 40sp at the most and they're already most likely planning to add a severe downside to wearing multiple pieces. If that happens, then the most that should be done to individual pieces is adding 50-75 negative defences to the elements not used.

We want rainbow tank items nerfed, single hive items aren't that.

 

Already changed it

 

They really do need to be raised a lot, I'm for to 66. 50 is the bare minimum for what they need to be raised to, not the upper cap.

 

I think they are fine individually. I feel Set Bonus is the way to go.

 

Honestly the items are completely fine on their own, raising the cap to prevent using them together isn't that great of an idea, a set "bonus" could potentially work better.

 

..that's insane.

The stats they give aren't worth 66 in three different skills. That's worse than gravity and don't provide as much defenses and has downsides in the elements it's not made of. In some cases other armour is better than hive but it's an issue when you can wear two pieces and be immune to a lot of all types of damage in the game (which is being discussed and worked on).

If you don't use skill point items (which also need a nerf IMO. Skill points and defenses? There's another rainbow tank issue) then you can't even use most end game wands like Requiem, Judas or any mythic. Anything above 45 is overkill and will make the hive set garbage. Perhaps add slight negatives skill points and defenses, but if that happens then keep the requirements as is.

 

Err have you seen the hive items? Say, Anima-Infused when compared to Cumulonimbus. Anima has 2.5k more health, better overall defenses, doesn't kill your other stats, for a net of 6% less damage in the skills you might want and 10 more skill points?

Or take Anima as a helmet compared to Medeis (also TWF) as a chestplate. Medeis kills your other defenses and doesn't even give much for TWF defenses, has way less health, less damage... oh, and should I mention, Medeis has 50 in each needed skill?

Just take any two 3-element items that are somewhat related and you're going to find that the Hive one is far, far, far better.

Raising skill points is a way, albeit somewhat roundabout, of nerfing the Hive items. It's significantly harder to use two different Hive items when they each require 66 per used skill, and that's the point.


I'd also argue that raising to 66 won't make the items garbage, just more specialized that they are right now. Take my TWF build which uses Anima. Right now, I would have the skill points to use Heph in conjunction with it, but I didn't because the person I made it for didn't want to. Also, I could have used Hetusol in the build, but decided to go with Aquarius because I could easily afford the skill points and it would raise spellspammability by a lot.

Raise Hive armor skill points, and the whole build needs a rework, which tones down a lot of stuff that was good about the build. Heph can definitely no longer be used, and neither can Aquarius. So then I'd have to go Hetusol and Summas, which overall makes the build still usable (and not really nerfed by too much; in fact, at first I didn't even consider this and it definitely has its upsides) and I can use something other than Gigabyte for the necklace.

The builds which would get hit hardest by this change would be ones that use more than one Hive item (which everybody agrees need a nerf) and melee tier builds which use Heph or Gaea-Hewn (which everybody, or at least Selvut, also agrees need a nerf).


Also, how in the world is 66 in three elements worse than Gravity? Gravity = 300 total SP. 66*3 = 198 total SP.

 

Hive is only able to be obtained once per class from what is aguably the hardest quest in the game, hive items are also level 100 legendaries compared to cumulonimbus which is a lvl 94 rare and medis which is a unique, both of these can also be obtained as many times as one wants on any specific class. So comparing hive items with most of the other items in the game really isn't a fair comparison given the difficulty, time, and effort required to obtain them. As far as balance hive items are completely fine on their own, the only thing that makes them in any way overpowered, ignoring defense but elemental defense is broken and needs a redo anyway, is when multiple are used together.

 

Sure, except as has been evidenced by the rest of this thread, people very often use more than one Hive item together.

Also, level and rarity don't always automatically imply that the higher one must be better. Ring of Generosity and Worship, for example. RoG outclasses Worship in every ID it has, and is obtained every time you run a relatively easy quest. Sure, maybe this was an oversight by GM's, but IMO Hive SP also was ;)

Besides, I'd argue that the opposite of what you were saying about them being rarer is true. Personally, I've never found a Medeis, and I've never found a good Cumulonimbus. On the other hand, I know that I can easily get several Master Hive items by just running a quest. (Argue about the difficulty of the quest in comparison with others, but it's at least pretty trivial to do in a group.)

 

As has been suggested on other parts of the thread, change the hive to a 'set' to make wearing multiple pieces a disadvantage.

Rarity doesn't always granted an item is better yes but for the most part rarer items tend to be more powerful, you can also still only get one ring of generosity per class.

In terms of never finding a cumulonimbus or media that's just bad rng.

 

As has been said by Selvut, he isn't sure that the set option is the best choice. This is another option that I believe is better as it deals with several things at once, not just the issue of using more than one.

Maybe it sometimes does, though these examples should demonstrate how much better the legendaries are. Many other legendary/rare-unique comparisons aren't this skewed (Hetusol vs Chef Hamsey's Apron, for example - I'd use Hetusol more often, though there are several good reasons why one would use Chef Hamsey's Apron.)

This is an example. My view is that you're guaranteed one per class, while your view is that you're limited to one per class. It's a half-empty half-full kind of thing. (Also, I didn't mention this before, but you're guaranteed to have the best stats you can get on a Hive item, whereas if you use a non-set ID item such as Medeis or Cumulonimbus then you may have to buy one for a lot of money or spend a lot of time looking for one.)
I'm also not really sure what this point has to do with showing how much better Hive items are than other items.

 

There aren't that many tri-elemental armour of the same piece that match the hive set, and I think it's fair that hive does outclass it. It's an exclusive end game set of armour that you can only obtain once per class. With the coming changes that make wearing multiple a bad idea (however that gets implemented it's going to have the same effect) only one piece is going to be used, leaving 3 different slots for other armour pieces. I'll agree with changing the skill point requirements but literally doubling them seems unfair.

I can compare Gaea-Hewn to Paradox and argue that paradox is better due to higher damage, mana regen and skill points. The difference between the two is that one has raw defenses, and the other is % defenses (quite a large bit of it too) on top of better damage, and great mana regen. In melee, Gaea-Hewn is better because of its defenses (which melee stuff generally don't have a lot of).

That's also hurting the ability to use them by themselves, which won't really an issue after the changes. Even if it is a good idea, which I don't think it is, then do it in increments. Doubling the requirements right off the bat on top of any potential nerfs may completely kill the set. Adding negative skill points would be in the same boat as what you're trying to get at (not being able to use multiple at the same time) without hurting the ability to use just one piece at a time.

And if you raise the skill points by as much as you're suggesting, you'll have little to no room for options such as aquarius that requires 110 in one element without going all out with skill point accessories and vaward which are so overused and possibly overpowered (prisms with skill points, raw defenses and a hearty chunk of % defenses and reflection..?).

Again, that's forcing you to use much few options in the game this making even more items a bad idea because hive items are good. At this rate, we'll just stop using hive items because they're not good enough to warrant investing 198 skill points into. And I agree, they're not that good. Your example is good, but that's for one specific build. We'll find ways around it and make new builds that can still use hive items, but does that really leave us with much room for any high skill point items like mythics or aquarius, like you said? No, not really.

I disagree. There's better ways to punish using multiple hive items at the same time without killing the ability to use just one piece. Yes, you're stopping people from using multiple pieces at once, but you're also hurting most builds while you're at it.

66 in three as compared to 60 in 5. They'd end up in the same boat as gravity, with ridiculous skill point requirements, but only with three elements. Hive wouldn't be worth using anymore.